Layman Arahant

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Virgo
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Re: Layman Arahant

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:If that were derived from the texts there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is, however, that many sotapannas announced their attainments to others in the texts.
There is a massive difference between the texts, where there is the Buddha who can correct such a claim, if needs be, and someone, on an internet forum, declaring of himself "I am a sotapanna" or whatever level of ariya the individual might imagine of himself. Does it need to be spelled out?

If you would like to assert that the " if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna test" is wholly accurate you will need to explain where it is shown in the texts that sotapanna cannot announce such a thing. Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth. The truth is that your test does not work, though you would like it to.

Have a nice day.

Take care,
Kevin

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mikenz66
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Re: Layman Arahant

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:54 pm

Virgo wrote:Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth.

Do you have any examples? Especially of lay people?

Mike

Virgo
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Re: Layman Arahant

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:06 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Virgo wrote:Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth.

Do you have any examples? Especially of lay people?

Mike

Sure, both Sariputta and Maha Mogallana announced it when they attained it, which was before they even met the Buddha. At that time they did not yet have the names "Sariputta" and "Maha Mogallana". Sariputta learned dhamma from a monk, he then became a sotapanna and told Maha Mogallana that he had. He then travelled with Maha Mogallana to Sariputtas teacher at that time and they told him about it (and one can presume from the account that they told all of the monks disciples as well, because they all travelled with Maha Mogallana and Sariputta to go learn from this teacher of the deathless, the Arahant). Maha Mogallana also attained before they met the Buddha.

Simavati also attained the Dhamma-eye while listening to a talk of the Buddhas she attended and then told the Queen about it. She had worked for the King, buying flowers for Royal Funerals (I assume many funerals where held there for all sorts of important people, not just the Royal Family). Every time she would steal half of the money for the flowers and use the other half to purchase them. There was still a large amount of flowers and no one noticed. One day, the lady she bought the flowers from told her the Buddha would be giving a talk and they both attended. She attained sotapanna. After that, she was given money to buy flowers again for the dead, but this time she used it all and bought the full amount. When the Queen questioned her as to why there were so many, she admitted that she had stolen part of the money each time in the past, but that this time she purchased them all, she said she could not steal because she was a sotapanna.

Many other lay people have, but I don't have all the examples in front of me.

Kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:13 am

Virgo wrote:Sure, both Sariputta and Maha Mogallana announced it when they attained it, . . . .
And then there was the Buddha who was there to deal with it if were a problem. Also, a textual statement is a world of difference from that of an unsupported self-claim on an internet forum. This has been dealt with at length elsewhere and there is no need of derailing this thread. If you wish to discuss this further, start a new thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Layman Arahant

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:04 am

Virgo wrote:For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.

Those are some things to look out for.

A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.

Take care,
Kevin

I've met many people in my life who never seem to get upset or perturbed by anything, i would doubt they have any attainments. but this is besides the point. there is really no reason to denounce the claims of this person that his teacher is an arahant, doubt them, why sure that is just a healthy activity, i would doubt most any one's claim to any sort of attainment, in fact many of the people around here who say ajahn so&so is an arahant or whatever doesn't really do anything for me. i wouldn't go trying to knock them down a peg here though because many teacher's aryia or not are perfectly good examples of people walking the path so why not let someone think they have a level of attainment higher than they really have? as long as it's not the teacher claiming such things, and as long as the teacher remains a role model and not an object of worship it's not such a big deal. lets not go bashing teachers or placing doubts in students head please, especially on a forum where many students of different teachers come to learn, this place could turn into a never ending argument pretty quickly.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:16 am

jcsuperstar wrote: i would doubt most any one's claim to any sort of attainment, in fact many of the people around here who say ajahn so&so is an arahant or whatever doesn't really do anything for me.
It is one thing that a claim is made of someone by students of that person. It can be seen as a recognition of that person's life as being an expression of the Dhamma, which is really far more meaningful than the claim of ariya status itself.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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