It is one thing that a claim is made of someone by students of that person. It can be seen as a recognition of that person's life as being an expression of the Dhamma, which is really far more meaningful than the claim of ariya status itself.jcsuperstar wrote: i would doubt most any one's claim to any sort of attainment, in fact many of the people around here who say ajahn so&so is an arahant or whatever doesn't really do anything for me.
Layman Arahant
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Re: Layman Arahant
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Layman Arahant
From another topic:
Lay arahant
Yassa, was a layman who attained full enlightenment, an arahant and then ordained.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:51 pm I’m not aware of any sutta case where a layman becomes an Arahant and then joined the sangha? I think there might be a sutta where a layman did fully awaken and then died. On the whole, without nearly instantly dying, laymen can’t become Arahants. The heretical idea of laymen becoming Arahants was rejected by the Theravādins at the 3rd council. Therefore, it must be rejected.
Lay arahant
Re: Layman Arahant
I don’t see a link to the sutta there?DNS wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:29 am From another topic:
Yassa, was a layman who attained full enlightenment, an arahant and then ordained.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:51 pm I’m not aware of any sutta case where a layman becomes an Arahant and then joined the sangha? I think there might be a sutta where a layman did fully awaken and then died. On the whole, without nearly instantly dying, laymen can’t become Arahants. The heretical idea of laymen becoming Arahants was rejected by the Theravādins at the 3rd council. Therefore, it must be rejected.
Lay arahant
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Layman Arahant
Greetings,
"However, Bhikkhu Bodhi notes at least one case mentioned in the Pali Canon of a lay person attaining enlightenment, that of Yasa who ordained shortly thereafter. (Vin I 17,1–3)"
Metta,
Paul.
Vinaya...
"However, Bhikkhu Bodhi notes at least one case mentioned in the Pali Canon of a lay person attaining enlightenment, that of Yasa who ordained shortly thereafter. (Vin I 17,1–3)"
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Layman Arahant
So one layman who instantly became an Arahant after hearing the Dhamma from the Blessed One himself, whom then ordained him without the rule on being human. This does not support the idea that layfolk today can become Arahants today. Neither does it support the idea that the rule against non-humans does not apply to the Arahants.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- DNS
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Re: Layman Arahant
If you accept Commentaries, there is also:Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:54 am So one layman who instantly became an Arahant after hearing the Dhamma from the Blessed One himself, whom then ordained him without the rule on being human. This does not support the idea that layfolk today can become Arahants today. Neither does it support the idea that the rule against non-humans does not apply to the Arahants.
http://aimwell.org/DPPN/uggasena.html
And:
The Milindapanha mentions by implication that lay people can attain full enlightenment:
"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"
Milindapanha III.19
"You say that if a layman attains arahantship he must either enter the Order that very day or die and attainparinibbàna. Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl and preceptor then that exalted condition of arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it."
"The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the state of a layman, because it is too weak to support arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is weak; so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must, because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order that very day or die."
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Re: Layman Arahant
what weakness? knowing the truth (impermanence, nonself) doesnt affect body organs and lead to physical deathDNS wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:01 amIf you accept Commentaries, there is also:Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:54 am So one layman who instantly became an Arahant after hearing the Dhamma from the Blessed One himself, whom then ordained him without the rule on being human. This does not support the idea that layfolk today can become Arahants today. Neither does it support the idea that the rule against non-humans does not apply to the Arahants.
http://aimwell.org/DPPN/uggasena.html
And:
The Milindapanha mentions by implication that lay people can attain full enlightenment:
"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"
Milindapanha III.19
"You say that if a layman attains arahantship he must either enter the Order that very day or die and attainparinibbàna. Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl and preceptor then that exalted condition of arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it."
"The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the state of a layman, because it is too weak to support arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is weak; so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must, because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order that very day or die."
even if one want to not eat food, he wont die same day
even if one dont do volitational action, then how come one can do volitational action (like teaching ) in monkhood?
I dont understand...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: Layman Arahant
It has been a while since I read the story and I can't recall the details. There were two young brothers who learned to practice from a monk. They both quickly attained the jhanas and worked to become Arhats. It was decided that they had succeeded and both were immediately ordained monks also to protect them from dying quickly afterward. They joined the monastery and there was a great deal of local pride because of their rapid success. But then one of them developed health problems and was in need of surgery to correct the issue. He was not aware that this would be done under anesthesia and he became visibly afraid. It was at this point that it became clear that the two brothers probably still had a lot of work to do. Which is to say, how would a person who lived as a layman be able to be sure of having attained to the status of Arhat when it is so easy to get it wrong? Other than dying right away. That could end up being like cancer in the sense that so many people go to the doctor and are diagnosed and given only so long to live. It can happen that they die on schedule only for the autopsy to show they were misdiagnosed.
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Re: Layman Arahant
arhant can develop 8 jhanas and nirodha in same day if he wants, he can be able to explain dependent origination in and out... he wont suffer in mind even a nano second of stress coz he dont cling to anythingInedible wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:05 pm It has been a while since I read the story and I can't recall the details. There were two young brothers who learned to practice from a monk. They both quickly attained the jhanas and worked to become Arhats. It was decided that they had succeeded and both were immediately ordained monks also to protect them from dying quickly afterward. They joined the monastery and there was a great deal of local pride because of their rapid success. But then one of them developed health problems and was in need of surgery to correct the issue. He was not aware that this would be done under anesthesia and he became visibly afraid. It was at this point that it became clear that the two brothers probably still had a lot of work to do. Which is to say, how would a person who lived as a layman be able to be sure of having attained to the status of Arhat when it is so easy to get it wrong? Other than dying right away. That could end up being like cancer in the sense that so many people go to the doctor and are diagnosed and given only so long to live. It can happen that they die on schedule only for the autopsy to show they were misdiagnosed.
arhant will truely shine in community of non arhants
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Layman Arahant
An arahant would lose interest in the worldly pursuits of being a layman. It's not that he's physically unable, but would not have any interest. So he would ordain within 7 days or pass away in that time. He doesn't have to die, he could ordain within that time and still live for some years after that. He would seek ordination, but might die in the meantime, not that becoming an arahant makes your organs disintegrate, necessarily.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:45 am what weakness? knowing the truth (impermanence, nonself) doesnt affect body organs and lead to physical death
Imagine a layman working in a worldly career, receiving orders from a superior, getting scolded, doing various duties or if he is the supervisor, giving out orders and scolding others. An arahant would have no interest in such worldly pursuits, so I think the Commentary declaration of ordaining in 7 days makes sense.
Re: Layman Arahant
This is true if you can find a real Arhat. Unfortunately it is common for the label to be given when it hasn't been earned. It isn't intentional deception.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:30 pm arhant will truly shine in community of non arhants
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Re: Layman Arahant
Commentaries are the opium of the masses.
–Kærl Marqs
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
Re: Layman Arahant
You do realize that the writings and talks of Ven. Thanissaro and Ven.Vimalaramsi are also commentaries?rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:10 pmCommentaries are the opium of the masses.
–Kærl Marqs
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Layman Arahant
Yes.SDC wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:46 pmYou do realize that the writings and talks of Ven. Thanissaro and Ven.Vimalaramsi are also commentaries?rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:10 pmCommentaries are the opium of the masses.
–Kærl Marqs
It was a joke.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17