Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

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Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:26 pm

a few quick trivia questions to keep me off my toes and you on your bum
:alien:
Are sabba and sabbe the same word different number, i.e.:
sabba = nom. sing.?
sabbe = nom. pl.?
Or does one mean 'whole', the other 'all/every'?
Are both terms used in different versions of anapanasati and satipatthana in different countries/canons?

Can 'passambhayam' mean: [calm/calmed; having calmed; having been calmed; being calm'] instead of ['calming']?
Passive past participal or gerund or something else instead of whatever it usually is translated as?

:reading: :group: :!:
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:14 pm

I'm a beginner, but seems like Sabba and Sabbe are the same word, but in different numbers to agree with a noun. So, sabba = whole, and sabbe = all. The whole person (singular), all of the people (plural). Still my guess, though.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:24 pm

I am also a beginner at Pali, but think that:

sabbe = one
sabba = all, every
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:21 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:I am also a beginner at Pali, but think that:

sabbe = one
sabba = all, every


I'm not sure, but I think they both probably should have a meaning that is consistent (as long as they're read in the same context). Like the following:

Every person. (sabba)
Every people. (sabbe)

All of the person. (sabba)
All of the people. (sabbe)

The whole of a person. (sabba)
The whole of a people. (sabbe)

Etc.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby yuttadhammo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:32 pm

lojong1 wrote:a few quick trivia questions to keep me off my toes and you on your bum
:alien:
Are sabba and sabbe the same word different number, i.e.:
sabba = nom. sing.?
sabbe = nom. pl.?
Or does one mean 'whole', the other 'all/every'?

sabba is not a proper Pali form - it is the undeclined form of the pronoun. The only place you would find it is in a compound, e.g.:
sabbabuddhānubhāvena sadā sotthī bhavantu te. (sing)

sabbadānaṃ dhammadānaṃ jināti. (pl)

in which case, it can be either plural or singular, as signified by the noun in the compound.

Perhaps you are thinking of the form "sabbaa" or "sabbā"?

If so, sabbā and sabbe are both pathamaa (nominative) and dutiyaa (accusative) plural, one being masc. and the other feminine:
satañca gandho paṭivātameti, sabbā disā sappuriso pavāyati. (fem.)

ekaṃ nāma kiṃ"? "sabbe sattā āhāraṭṭhitikā

Are both terms used in different versions of anapanasati and satipatthana in different countries/canons?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that sabba is not used in any canon, except when contracted in a compound; sabbaa and sabbe are used in all, as explained above.
Can 'passambhayam' mean: calm/calmed; having calmed; having been calmed; being calm' instead of 'calming'?
Passive past participal or gerund or something else instead of whatever it usually is translated as?

According to the vinaya commentary:
passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāra nti oḷārikaṃ oḷārikaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ passambhento, nirodhentoti attho.

passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmi ... pe ... passasissāmīti sikkhatī ti oḷārikaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passambhento paṭippassambhento nirodhento vūpasamento assasissāmi passasissāmīti sikkhati.

I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"
You can't just "make" it a gerund, though :) That would be passambhetvaa:
pubbe khvāhaṃ, bhante, gelaññe passambhetvā passambhetvā kāyasaṅkhāre viharāmi, sohaṃ samādhiṃ nappaṭilabhāmi.

Best wishes,

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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby lojong1 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:39 pm

:thanks:
yuttadhammo wrote:I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"
"

So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaami' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations? :thinking:

[edit: I'm now leaning toward kayasankhara = body fabricator]
Last edited by lojong1 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby yuttadhammo » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:51 pm

lojong1 wrote:So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaamii' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations? :thinking:

I doubt it... the commentaries prefer the interpretation, "I will breathe making calm the formation of the body (singular, btw)" . Perhaps there is a missing verbal form, eg "karonto":

[aha.m] passambhayam kaayasankhaaram [karonto] passasissaami

Just a guess, I'm not really an expert :)
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby Kare » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:37 pm

lojong1 wrote::thanks:
yuttadhammo wrote:I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"
"

So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaami' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations? :thinking:


I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby lojong1 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:24 pm

Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby Kare » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:51 pm

lojong1 wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?


Because that's what it is in Pali.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:03 am

Thanks kare, I'm finding more confirmation of that by googling passambhati. Makes me want to get some proper study material for home--maybe the Pali set Beeblebrox recommended.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:13 pm

lojong1 wrote:Thanks kare, I'm finding more confirmation of that by googling passambhati. Makes me want to get some proper study material for home--maybe the Pali set Beeblebrox recommended.


I probably wouldn't have gotten it if it wasn't for Kare's recommendation. :) By the way, it seems like the set also includes the variations, in brackets... so that's a very nice bonus. I still don't understand most of the Pali words, but I still read anyway to get the feeling of their patterns.

Actually... this morning, I read a line that seems relevant to this thread, from the Saṃyutta Nikāya:

"Na tvaṃ bāle pajānāsi, yathā arahataṃ vaco;
Aniccā sabbasaṅkhārā [sabbe saṅkhārā (sī. syā. kam.)], uppādavadhammino;
Uppajjitvā nirujjhanti, tesaṃ vūpasamo sukho"ti.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby PeterB » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:26 pm

Kare wrote:
lojong1 wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?


Because that's what it is in Pali.

and because it makes more sense in the process that is being described.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby Kare » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:45 pm

PeterB wrote:and because it makes more sense in the process that is being described.


The Pali texts usually make good sense. :D
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby PeterB » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:50 pm

Particularly when approached without subjectivism...and your readings are admirable in that regard Kare.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby Kare » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:26 pm

PeterB wrote:Particularly when approached without subjectivism...and your readings are admirable in that regard Kare.


Thank you, but that really is impossible. We all bring our linguistic and cultural into the process of reading, interpreting, understanding and translating texts in foreign languages. The best we can do, is to be aware of this problem, and try to minimalize it as best we can. But we never succeed 100 %, and usually it is easier for others to discover failings, misunderstandings and mistakes than it is for ourselves.

Therefore it is a great advantage to be able to cooperate with some critically minded friends during a translation. I was lucky enough to have that benefit during my last translation work, collecting and translating a large anthology of Pali texts into Norwegian. Their critical remarks sometimes annoyed me, since I was convinced that my suggestions were better than theirs ... and we had lots of debates. :mrgreen: But I have to admit that the final result became much better thanks to their efforts.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby yuttadhammo » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:38 pm

Kare wrote:
lojong1 wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?


Because that's what it is in Pali.

I don't understand... how can it be a present participle? Wouldn't that require one of the present participle endings, viz. anta or maana ?
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby Kare » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:26 pm

yuttadhammo wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".


I don't understand... how can it be a present participle? Wouldn't that require one of the present participle endings, viz. anta or maana ?


The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby yuttadhammo » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:02 am

Kare wrote:The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.


Thanks, I was given the reference in Kaccaayana:

186, 107. simhi gacchantādīnaṃ ntasaddo aṃ.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:35 am

Kare wrote:The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.

I'm still confused; any more help with the following is appreciated...(hope I can understand it!)
Using Warder's grammar and other sources, the -a.m ending of present participles is used in nominative, as you say. Since the pres. part. is added to the verb stem, where did the 'y' come from in passambhaya.m? Wouldn't it be passambha.m or passambhanto in nom. masc. sing.?
Even so, kaayasankhaara.m is not nominative, it's accusative, and Warder's table (p.46) does not show '-a.m' as a possible accusative ending for pres. part. agreement here, it shows -anta.m (making passambhanta.m). And why is the accusative used here anyway? Surely it doesn't indicate what is being breathed in!
Maybe this is way too advanced for me right now when major scales and power chords are still challenging...:reading:
:reading: :reading: :shrug: :reading: ...
...Okay, I just found enough answers to let me sleep tonight.
"441. Verbal bases ending in e (1st Conj. 3rd. Division; 7th. Conj. and causal bases. See "Derivative or secondary conjugation") which have also another base in aya take only the termination nta after the base in e, and both ota and µ after the base in aya."
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/grammar/chpt10.htm

I had assumed this participle was from passambhati instead of passambheti, and didn't know the pali gerund/absolutive is indeclinable.
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