Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

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Kare
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Kare »

PeterB wrote:Particularly when approached without subjectivism...and your readings are admirable in that regard Kare.
Thank you, but that really is impossible. We all bring our linguistic and cultural into the process of reading, interpreting, understanding and translating texts in foreign languages. The best we can do, is to be aware of this problem, and try to minimalize it as best we can. But we never succeed 100 %, and usually it is easier for others to discover failings, misunderstandings and mistakes than it is for ourselves.

Therefore it is a great advantage to be able to cooperate with some critically minded friends during a translation. I was lucky enough to have that benefit during my last translation work, collecting and translating a large anthology of Pali texts into Norwegian. Their critical remarks sometimes annoyed me, since I was convinced that my suggestions were better than theirs ... and we had lots of debates. :mrgreen: But I have to admit that the final result became much better thanks to their efforts.
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yuttadhammo
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by yuttadhammo »

Kare wrote:
lojong1 wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".
Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?
Because that's what it is in Pali.
I don't understand... how can it be a present participle? Wouldn't that require one of the present participle endings, viz. anta or maana ?
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Kare »

yuttadhammo wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".
I don't understand... how can it be a present participle? Wouldn't that require one of the present participle endings, viz. anta or maana ?
The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by yuttadhammo »

Kare wrote:The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.
Thanks, I was given the reference in Kaccaayana:
186, 107. simhi gacchantādīnaṃ ntasaddo aṃ.
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by lojong1 »

Kare wrote:The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.
I'm still confused; any more help with the following is appreciated...(hope I can understand it!)
Using Warder's grammar and other sources, the -a.m ending of present participles is used in nominative, as you say. Since the pres. part. is added to the verb stem, where did the 'y' come from in passambhaya.m? Wouldn't it be passambha.m or passambhanto in nom. masc. sing.?
Even so, kaayasankhaara.m is not nominative, it's accusative, and Warder's table (p.46) does not show '-a.m' as a possible accusative ending for pres. part. agreement here, it shows -anta.m (making passambhanta.m). And why is the accusative used here anyway? Surely it doesn't indicate what is being breathed in!
Maybe this is way too advanced for me right now when major scales and power chords are still challenging...:reading:
:reading: :reading: :shrug: :reading: ...
...Okay, I just found enough answers to let me sleep tonight.
"441. Verbal bases ending in e (1st Conj. 3rd. Division; 7th. Conj. and causal bases. See "Derivative or secondary conjugation") which have also another base in aya take only the termination nta after the base in e, and both ota and µ after the base in aya."
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/grammar/chpt10.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had assumed this participle was from passambhati instead of passambheti, and didn't know the pali gerund/absolutive is indeclinable.
:zzz:
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Kare
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Kare »

lojong1 wrote:
Kare wrote:The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.
I'm still confused; any more help with the following is appreciated...(hope I can understand it!)
Using Warder's grammar and other sources, the -a.m ending of present participles is used in nominative, as you say. Since the pres. part. is added to the verb stem, where did the 'y' come from in passambhaya.m? Wouldn't it be passambha.m or passambhanto in nom. masc. sing.?
Even so, kaayasankhaara.m is not nominative, it's accusative, and Warder's table (p.46) does not show '-a.m' as a possible accusative ending for pres. part. agreement here, it shows -anta.m (making passambhanta.m). And why is the accusative used here anyway? Surely it doesn't indicate what is being breathed in!
Maybe this is way too advanced for me right now when major scales and power chords are still challenging...:reading:
:reading: :reading: :shrug: :reading: ...
...Okay, I just found enough answers to let me sleep tonight.
"441. Verbal bases ending in e (1st Conj. 3rd. Division; 7th. Conj. and causal bases. See "Derivative or secondary conjugation") which have also another base in aya take only the termination nta after the base in e, and both ota and µ after the base in aya."
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/grammar/chpt10.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had assumed this participle was from passambhati instead of passambheti, and didn't know the pali gerund/absolutive is indeclinable.
:zzz:
You found the correct answer. Passambhaya.m is the present participle (-a.m) of a causative (-aya-) - I should of course have mentioned that. I'm happy to see that you got a good night's sleep! :clap:

Pali has a beautiful economy of expression. In one word - here: passambhaya.m - it is possible to express something that needs a whole phrase in the Western languages.
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Assaji
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Assaji »

Hi,

There's a useful table for deciphering suffixes:

-aya- 1. caus. stem. kāraya-, gămaya-, bhāvaya-

http://dhamma.ru/in/palisufi.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


As for the "whole body", the earliest explanation is given in Patisambhidamagga:
42. (.m48). “`Experiencing the whole body,’ I shall breathe in, thus he trains himself; `experiencing the whole body,’ I shall breathe out, thus he trains himself.”

“Body”: There are two bodies—the mentality-body and the materiality-body.

Feeling, perception, volition, sense-impression, attention-mentality and the mentality-body—and those (things) which are called the mental formations—this is the mentality-body.[77]

The four great primaries and the materiality derived from the four great primaries—in-breath and out-breath and the sign for the binding (of mindfulness)—and those (things) which are called the bodily formations-this is the materiality-body.

http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by lojong1 »

http://dhamma.ru/paali/etimolog.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

!! It looks like Russian is closer to Pali than English is--looks like...
"As Gurdjieff explained to Ouspensky ... "for exact understanding exact language is necessary." In his first series of writings, Gurdjieff explains how difficult it is to choose an ordinary language to convey his thoughts exactly. He continues..."the Russian language is like the English...both these languages are like the dish which is called in Moscow 'Solianka' [solyanka], and into which everything goes except you and me..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyanka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- haha yum, 're-birth' in a bowl!
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Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Kare »

lojong1 wrote:http://dhamma.ru/paali/etimolog.htm

!! It looks like Russian is closer to Pali than English is--looks like...
It is. When I studied a little Russian and Polish, I constantly met "old friends" from Pali and Sanskrit - both in grammar and in vocabulary.
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