Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Dhammakid
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Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Dhammakid »

Hello All,
I started a similar thread on ES.

I am looking to leave my current job and pick up a waiting position at a restaurant. I need to make a lot more money than I do now to help pay off some extreme debt and hopefully help pay for school. But I don't have my degree yet, so obviously my choices are limited (especially in this American economy).

A few of my friends work at bars and restaurants and make really good money, relatively speaking. I would like to do the same. However, of course, the concern is "dealing in meat and intoxicants".

Upon reading Right Livelihood: The Noble Eightfold Path in the Working Life by Susan Elbaum Jootla, there doesn't seem to be much wiggle room with the 5th Precept. She doesn't say anything about serving meat to others, but it seems serving intoxicants to others is not a good idea...

Any insight is appreciated. And please, don't sugar coat it for me. Tell me the cold, hard truth :-)

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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by AlaskanDhamma »

Well in my opinion, which might not mean much to you, I think that you're in the clear as far as serving alcohol as a job. Supporting yourself is important. Attachment to money and worldly things is something to be avoiding, but in this world we as laypeople must survive somehow. We need to have a job. I think that if it is that person's choice to partake in drinking intoxicants, that choice in not influenced by the fact that you choose to work there. You can not be held responsible for what that establishment offers, only yourself and your own actions.

That's just my thoughts. Hope it helps. :)
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Dhammakid »

AlaskanDhamma wrote:Well in my opinion, which might not mean much to you, I think that you're in the clear as far as serving alcohol as a job. Supporting yourself is important. Attachment to money and worldly things is something to be avoiding, but in this world we as laypeople must survive somehow. We need to have a job. I think that if it is that person's choice to partake in drinking intoxicants, that choice in not influenced by the fact that you choose to work there. You can not be held responsible for what that establishment offers, only yourself and your own actions.

That's just my thoughts. Hope it helps. :)
Thanks very much for your comments AD. I tend to agree with you, but I just wanted to make sure to cover all the bases first. Is there not something to be said about my aiding them in consuming alcohol? I guess they would just get it elsewhere anyway...

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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Cittasanto »

how about getting a job to do with your degree? think about the long term benefits of doing that?

as for meat well if someone is so attached to the eating of meat or lack thereof that they would feel uncomfortable serving it then there is work to do there.
as for Alcohol same goes, we each make our own decisions in life we inherit the Kamma we sow it is how we deal with it that matters
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Dhammakid »

Manapa wrote:how about getting a job to do with your degree? think about the long term benefits of doing that?

as for meat well if someone is so attached to the eating of meat or lack thereof that they would feel uncomfortable serving it then there is work to do there.
as for Alcohol same goes, we each make our own decisions in life we inherit the Kamma we sow it is how we deal with it that matters
Thanks for your comments Manapa.

Well, my degree is in sociology...not many jobs out there for a student such as myself who doesn't have a degree yet...sociology is a pretty limited field without a degree.

I think you're right about working on my aversion to the eating of meat or consuming of intoxicants. Maybe it's not so healthy to despise it so much. Although, I wouldn't say I'm extremely against it. After all, I ate meat for quite a while until just recently, and I have consumed alcoholic beverages every once in a while, just haven't been drunk in a long time.

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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Cittasanto »

advertising? Marketing research? you could even get a job in mental health
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by kc2dpt »

I would not personally worry about being a waitperson as far as Right Livelihood. Your job is to basically bring something from point A to point B. Sometimes it's a salad, sometimes it's a beer.

You could get a job waiting in a restaurant with a BYOB policy, meaning they don't serve alcohol but customers bring their own.
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Dhammakid »

Manapa wrote:advertising? Marketing research? you could even get a job in mental health
These all require a degree in the States. I'm still a student - I don't graduate until next year. I need money right now so I can begin paying off debt.
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Dhammakid »

Peter wrote:I would not personally worry about being a waitperson as far as Right Livelihood. Your job is to basically bring something from point A to point B. Sometimes it's a salad, sometimes it's a beer.

You could get a job waiting in a restaurant with a BYOB policy, meaning they don't serve alcohol but customers bring their own.
Thanks for the advice Peter. Though I've never heard of a restaurant with a BYOB policy.

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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammakid wrote:Thanks for the advice Peter. Though I've never heard of a restaurant with a BYOB policy.
Liquor licenses can be expensive and sometimes difficult to acquire. Thus a restaurant might have a BYOB policy.
Oh, and it means "Bring Your Own Bottle" meaning a bottle of wine.
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by DNS »

Right Livelihood refers to trade in meat, in intoxicants, . . . therefore, appears to imply ownership of the business. If you are an employee and working for wages, it should not be a problem. It is the customers who are making the decisions as to what to eat and drink.

I would not want to own a business that serves meat or alcohol, but working as an employee would not be a violation of any precept, in my opinion.

Perhaps an analogy: If I take some people out to eat at a restaurant, everyone knows that I am a vegetarian and do not eat meat or drink alcohol. Even if I am paying, I don't tell them what they can or cannot order. That is their decision, even if I am the one paying.
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by jcsuperstar »

i worked in a liquor store for 2 years, i learned a lot about wine and enjoyed talking about it with others who knew about it, but i hated the job over all, i was treated poorly by most people, had to deal with lots of rude and mean people, kids who try to buy, or steal, drunks etc. i finally just quit after a supervisor was rude to me... i dont regret leaving.
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by AlaskanDhamma »

I found and interesting documents about jobs/careers in sociology. I see a lot in this list that could have entry-level potential if you use your time right to search.

colfa.utsa.edu/Sociology/Jobs.doc
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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Dhammakid »

TheDhamma wrote:Right Livelihood refers to trade in meat, in intoxicants, . . . therefore, appears to imply ownership of the business. If you are an employee and working for wages, it should not be a problem. It is the customers who are making the decisions as to what to eat and drink.

I would not want to own a business that serves meat or alcohol, but working as an employee would not be a violation of any precept, in my opinion.

Perhaps an analogy: If I take some people out to eat at a restaurant, everyone knows that I am a vegetarian and do not eat meat or drink alcohol. Even if I am paying, I don't tell them what they can or cannot order. That is their decision, even if I am the one paying.
This a great point Dhamma. Thanks for the enlightening perspective.

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Re: Restaurants/Bars as Wrong Livelihood?

Post by Dhammakid »

jcsuperstar wrote:i worked in a liquor store for 2 years, i learned a lot about wine and enjoyed talking about it with others who knew about it, but i hated the job over all, i was treated poorly by most people, had to deal with lots of rude and mean people, kids who try to buy, or steal, drunks etc. i finally just quit after a supervisor was rude to me... i dont regret leaving.
Haha, thanks for sharing JC. You definitely won't catch me working at a liquor store anytime soon...or ever. I barely ever go inside them anymore. Nothing there for me, haha.

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