vimuttimagga

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vimuttimagga

Postby Reductor » Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:30 am

Hey all,

I was wondering if any member has read the vimuttimagga, and what they thought of it. I'd be especially interested in how it differs from the visuddhimagga.

Also, does anyone have a pdf of it, as I'd like to print a copy (scribd has it online, but that site's painful slow - besides, I don't like reading on the computer).

Thanks.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:42 am

You can Google for:
The_Path_of_Freedom,Vimuttimagga,N.Ehara,1961.pdf
Which is probably an unauthorized copy.

Or you could order a copy from BPS http://www.bps.lk/
They currently say they will do photocopies, and a new typesetting is due soon.

Mike

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Reductor » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:17 pm

mikenz66 wrote:You can Google for:
The_Path_of_Freedom,Vimuttimagga,N.Ehara,1961.pdf
Which is probably an unauthorized copy.

Or you could order a copy from BPS http://www.bps.lk/
They currently say they will do photocopies, and a new typesetting is due soon.

Mike


I emailed BPS and was told that the vimuttimagga was unavailable. Hence my question.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby gavesako » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:23 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Reductor » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:56 pm



Have you read it before Bhante?
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby adeh » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:16 am

It's well worth the read, but I found it a little bit drier that the Visuddhimagga.

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby gavesako » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:32 am

Yes, it is good to compare it with the later Visuddhimagga. There are some some small differences between them.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Reductor » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:50 am

Thanks everyone that responded.

I would prefer a paper copy, but as I mentioned the BPS is not offering it right now. So, I think I have shall have to read it online, as I don't want to violate any copyright laws. Of course, the version linked to by Venerable Gavesako doesn't seem to have a copyright notice on it. :shrug: Oh well, I guess I'm not setting out to read it just yet, so perhaps BPS will put out a new one in the near future.

Thank you Adeh and Gavesake for your take on the vimuttimagga verses the visuddhimagga. Although I haven't read the visuddhimagga to an appreciable length, I would still contend that it is very dry... so how much dryer could the vimuttimagga be? I shudder to think. :smile:

Anyway, thank you all for the input.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:15 am

thereductor wrote:Thank you Adeh and Gavesake for your take on the vimuttimagga verses the visuddhimagga. Although I haven't read the visuddhimagga to an appreciable length, I would still contend that it is very dry... so how much dryer could the vimuttimagga be? I shudder to think. :smile:

I think the mistake people make is to read those books like a novel, or, worse, a PhD thesis. If you skim through the whole thing to get an idea of the shape and then read some of the bits that seem interesting in detail then the Visuddhimagga has some cool stuff. Nice little stories, helpful meditation tips. As I've said before, I picture it as a bunch of extracts from Dhamma talks of various ancient teachers (Buddhaghosa just collected them together in one place and gave it some sort of thematic sequence). Just as when you go to a modern talk, they vary...

Mike

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:52 am

mikenz66 wrote:I think the mistake people make is to read those books like a novel,

Mike

hey that was me!


also i talked to someone at BPS not that long ago and they mentioned a reprint but i cant remember when...
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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Ben » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:39 am

Hi all

As some of you know, I downloaded a copy of the Vimuttimagga from Scribd. I paid for one month's subscription to scribd (US$9) so I could download the Vimm which was great and then went on to download Rhys-David's Pali-English dictionary. The pdf copies I downloaded from scribd are searchable which isn't always the same with all pdf documents.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Nyana » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:29 am

jcsuperstar wrote:also i talked to someone at BPS not that long ago and they mentioned a reprint but i cant remember when...

Hi JC & all,

Not sure about when BPS will publish another edition of the old translation, but Ven. Ñāṇatusita (BPS editor) is working on a new translation which he says should be finished in the next year or two.

All the best,

Geoff

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Nyana » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:03 am

For anyone interested, here are a couple of papers which discuss aspects of the Vimuttimagga in relation to the Visuddhimagga:

The Treatise on the Path to Liberation and the Visuddhimagga by Ven. Anālayo.

The Mystery of the Breath Nimitta by Ven. Soṇa.

All the best,

Geoff

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Reductor » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:11 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:For anyone interested, here are a couple of papers which discuss aspects of the Vimuttimagga in relation to the Visuddhimagga:

The Treatise on the Path to Liberation and the Visuddhimagga by Ven. Anālayo.


Wow, that's interesting. Thank you very much Geoff.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Virgo » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:16 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
thereductor wrote:Thank you Adeh and Gavesake for your take on the vimuttimagga verses the visuddhimagga. Although I haven't read the visuddhimagga to an appreciable length, I would still contend that it is very dry... so how much dryer could the vimuttimagga be? I shudder to think. :smile:

I think the mistake people make is to read those books like a novel, or, worse, a PhD thesis. If you skim through the whole thing to get an idea of the shape and then read some of the bits that seem interesting in detail then the Visuddhimagga has some cool stuff. Nice little stories, helpful meditation tips. As I've said before, I picture it as a bunch of extracts from Dhamma talks of various ancient teachers (Buddhaghosa just collected them together in one place and gave it some sort of thematic sequence). Just as when you go to a modern talk, they vary...

Mike

I agree to a degree Mike, except that Buddhaghosa was a master of the Tipitika and it's Commentaries.

Kevin

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:55 pm

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:... I picture it as a bunch of extracts from Dhamma talks of various ancient teachers (Buddhaghosa just collected them together in one place and gave it some sort of thematic sequence). Just as when you go to a modern talk, they vary...
Mike

I agree to a degree Mike, except that Buddhaghosa was a master of the Tipitika and it's Commentaries.

Yes, but my point was that most of the material in the Visuddhimagga exists in the Vinaya, Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentaries. It's not just some stuff dreamed up by a some scholar.

As you can see from the discussion in the interesting scholarly article referred to by Geoff above:

the Visuddhimagga is part of an on-going discussion.

To me the important question is to what extent the summarized commentarial material in the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga and the frameworks used to describe the development of insight is based on a correct interpretation of centuries of experience of implementing the teachings of the Buddha. Ven Analyo's article suggests that some aspects of the evolution may not be as productive as others.

Hence my comment that what is gathered together is like a selection of Dhamma talks by various teachers. Some may be more useful than others. The modern teachers who base their approach on these commentaries do not take every detail equally seriously, as one can see from quotes from U Pandita, such as the one I reproduded here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 631#p70910

So if the way the modern and ancient teachers have interpreted the Buddha's teaching is an effective tool for liberation then what they say is worth listening to. If not, it wouldn't be.

Mike

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Virgo » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:39 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:... I picture it as a bunch of extracts from Dhamma talks of various ancient teachers (Buddhaghosa just collected them together in one place and gave it some sort of thematic sequence). Just as when you go to a modern talk, they vary...
Mike

I agree to a degree Mike, except that Buddhaghosa was a master of the Tipitika and it's Commentaries.

Yes, but my point was that most of the material in the Visuddhimagga exists in the Vinaya, Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentaries. It's not just some stuff dreamed up by a some scholar....
Mike

Dear Mike,
Those are some good points. There is a very good thread on the Vimuttimagga at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/. Unfortunately, Robert's site does not have direct links set up. The site is http://www.abhidhamma.org > Abhiddhamma Vipassana Forum > Origin and Authenticity of Texts (the first forum) > Vimuttimagga (on the first page that appears when you click on that forum).

-Kevin

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:54 pm

Greetings all,

Another paper which addresses the OP's enquiry:

Vimuttimagga and Vissudhimagga. Comparative Study by P.V. Bapat:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30140722/P-V- ... sudhimagga

kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

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Re: vimuttimagga

Postby daverupa » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:45 am

Ñāṇa wrote:For anyone interested, here are a couple of papers which discuss aspects of the Vimuttimagga in relation to the Visuddhimagga:

The Treatise on the Path to Liberation and the Visuddhimagga by Ven. Anālayo.


I just read this article. Delightful! I'm going to read the Vimuttimagga now.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]


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