Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

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Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:56 pm

Why have you--yes, you--translated punabbhava into rebirth?
'Rebirth' is already extremely busy hiding a host of other refugee definitions from various languages and traditions.
Paticca-samuppada says that birth (jaati) and becoming (bhaava) are not the same. Punabbhava is 'again-becoming.' If 'again-becoming' is unwieldy, why not use punabbhava? It has buddhist origins (unlike rebirth) and cannot yet be confused with any other word or context.

Why have you translated jaati...why upapajjati...etc...
..."X" as 'rebirth'?

Seeing the confusion in other buddhist rebirth threads, why don't we just stop using the word 'rebirth'?
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Re: Big Square Xs in the Small Round of Rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:04 am

Greetings lojong1,

lojong1 wrote:Why have you--yes, you--translated punabbhava into rebirth?

In light of this aspect, it's probably best to move this topic out of the Mahavihara group of sub-forums, so hold onto your seats which we move somewhere else...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:57 am

lojong1 wrote:Why have you--yes, you--translated punabbhava into rebirth?
'Rebirth' is already extremely busy hiding a host of other refugee definitions from various languages and traditions.
Paticca-samuppada says that birth (jaati) and becoming (bhaava) are not the same. Punabbhava is 'again-becoming.' If 'again-becoming' is unwieldy, why not use punabbhava? It has buddhist origins (unlike rebirth) and cannot yet be confused with any other word or context.

Why have you translated jaati...why upapajjati...etc...
..."X" as 'rebirth'?

Seeing the confusion in other buddhist rebirth threads, why don't we just stop using the word 'rebirth'?



What else do you propose?
punabbhava = puna + bhava
puna = again.
bhava=the state of existence.

again+state of existence.


Also see DN15 sutta on entering the womb part.
If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:05 am

Greetings Alex,

An interesting example to use given that the "state of existence"s described are in the same "lifetime".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:03 am

DN15 is probably the only place where a womb is referred to in the pali out of the suttas that DO is talked about. I would seriously doubt its credibility not only because the DN is anyway believed to be a later addition by some but also because it is drastically different to the other suttas that talks about paticcasamuppada. It looks a lot like a later addition.
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:43 am

Sunrise wrote:DN15 is probably the only place where a womb is referred to in the pali out of the suttas that DO is talked about. I would seriously doubt its credibility not only because the DN is anyway believed to be a later addition by some but also because it is drastically different to the other suttas that talks about paticcasamuppada. It looks a lot like a later addition.

This may be true, but it seems implied in many other places and specific mention of old age, sickness and death is common...

And DO is not the only time there is talk about birth. Plenty of wombs elsewhere in the Suttas.

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:18 am

Alex123, I don't see an answer to the OP in your post. I don't mind if there is or isn't, I'm just letting you know that I don't see one.
If my questions are unclear, someone please let me know.
[quote="Alex123"]What else do you propose?[quote]
What else do I propose for what? Punabbhava? My #1 pick would be to keep to the original Pali 'punabbhava'. Otherwise re-becoming or re-being, until I hear another alternative that I don't find so obfuscating. I won't be using re-birth for puna-bbhava for reasons found in the same sutta you quoted, DN 15:
"'From becoming (bhava) as a requisite condition comes birth (jaati).' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. If there were no becoming at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., sensual becoming, form becoming, or formless becoming — in the utter absence of becoming, from the cessation of becoming, would birth be discerned?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for birth, i.e., becoming.
"'From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. If there were no clinging at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., clinging to sensuality, clinging to precepts and practices, clinging to views, or clinging to doctrines of the self — in the utter absence of clinging, from the cessation of clinging, would becoming be discerned?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for becoming, i.e., clinging."

I don't know why you quoted DN15. It contains neither 're-birth' in that particular English translation, nor punabbhava in the Pali, but would "be produced" is 'abhinibbattissathā'. Do you translate this as re-birth as well as puna-bbhava? Are they really synonymous? What other Pali words do you call re-birth?
DN 15 is a great defense for using the original pali instead of re-birth; using 'anhinibbatti' where abhinibbatti is meant, how many messy 'literal or moment-to-moment' re-birth arguments and qualifications could be avoided?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
"Becoming (bhāva) is the process..."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#b
"Bhava [bhava] -- Becoming."

Bhikkhu Bodhi in Nanamoli's MN: Bhava = "being" [is] the kammically determinative aspect of the present life that causes future birth..."
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:43 am

Why get reborn into endless nit-picking discussions about the meaning of words? Those from the Tibetan tradition often call it "Reincarnation," those from the Theravāda tradition usually called it "Rebirth." Whatever you call it, its still just more suffering.

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:02 am

:anjali:
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:16 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:DN15 is probably the only place where a womb is referred to in the pali out of the suttas that DO is talked about. I would seriously doubt its credibility not only because the DN is anyway believed to be a later addition by some but also because it is drastically different to the other suttas that talks about paticcasamuppada. It looks a lot like a later addition.

This may be true, but it seems implied in many other places and specific mention of old age, sickness and death is common...

And DO is not the only time there is talk about birth. Plenty of wombs elsewhere in the Suttas.

Mke


I am not talking about old age, sickness and death in different contexts. I am talking about the womb in the context of dependent origination. Mahanidhana sutta has major differences to all the other suttas where DO has been talked about. It's as if the Buddha talked about the DO in one way in so many suttas and in a completely different way in one sutta which appears in the DN. I would be wary of it. If I remember right I pointed this out to you in some other thread also.

:namaste:
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:23 pm

There are plenty of suttas in 4Nikayas that do talk about literal birth, aging and death, hells and heavens.

I believe them, and strait reading of the MANY suttas support that.


Of course the best possible thing would have been if there were no literal rebirth, and if there was only one life... Then we all would achieve parinibbana at death... That would be so awesome, and there would be very quick and easy shortcuts for Parinibbana. Too bad it might not be the case.

I apply pascal's wager. I'll do my best to learn, understand, develop wisdom and cut down fetters to stop rebirth as soon as conditions allow. If rebirth exists, it will be good. If there will be no continuation after this miserable life, then I won't mind :) .
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:39 pm

Alex123 wrote:
If there will be no continuation after this miserable life


Why is life miserable?
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:03 pm

Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
If there will be no continuation after this miserable life


Why is life miserable?


Because it is its nature. It is natural.

It is fully conditioned and out of Self control. It is bondage. Even the most exulted states of consciousness are still not as good and peaceful as total and permanent absence of it. Famous and infamous people suffer in their own way. Good events don't last and we don't have control to prevent bad ones from happening.


Edible Food:
Simile: A couple, foodless in the midst of a desert, eat their little child, to enable them to reach their destination.

Sense-impression (contact):
Simile: A skinned cow, wherever s/he stands, will be ceaselessly attacked by the insects and other creatures living in the vicinity.

Volitional thought: Simile: two strong men dragging a victim into a fire pit

Consciousness:
simile: a punishment of a criminal who thrice daily is pierced with hundred spears (total 300 per day) and yet is alive to experience the suffering.
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:42 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
If there will be no continuation after this miserable life


Why is life miserable?


Because it is its nature. It is natural.

It is fully conditioned and out of Self control. It is bondage. Even the most exulted states of consciousness are still not as good and peaceful as total and permanent absence of it. Famous and infamous people suffer in their own way. Good events don't last and we don't have control to prevent bad ones from happening.





There have been many changes of one kind or another in life and various problems of one kind or another....but I wouldn't descibe my life as 'miserable' ! :)


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Re: Big Square Xs in the Small Round of Rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:04 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings lojong1,

lojong1 wrote:Why have you--yes, you--translated punabbhava into rebirth?

it's probably best to move this topic out of the Mahavihara group of sub-forums, so hold onto your seats which we move somewhere else...

Metta,
Retro. :)


:lol:
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:08 pm

Alex123 wrote:
DN15 sutta on entering the womb part.
If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Actually, this quote is heavy evidence against abortion. OT, sorry....just struck me... :?
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:11 pm

Sunrise wrote:DN15 is probably the only place where a womb is referred to in the pali out of the suttas that DO is talked about. I would seriously doubt its credibility not only because the DN is anyway believed to be a later addition by some but also because it is drastically different to the other suttas that talks about paticcasamuppada. It looks a lot like a later addition.


I thought you are...didn't you say something to the effect that you as a beginner are asking me something......? :shrug:

Huh...... :spy:
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:08 pm

Alex123 wrote:Because it is its nature. It is natural.

It is fully conditioned and out of Self control. It is bondage. Even the most exulted states of consciousness are still not as good and peaceful as total and permanent absence of it. Famous and infamous people suffer in their own way. Good events don't last and we don't have control to prevent bad ones from happening.


Life is not inherently miserable. It is the mental clinging to natural impermanent phenomena that is causing life miserable. The Buddha never taught to escape life. The Buddha attained Nibbana and dwelt in complete peace and free from suffering. Certainly the suttas say that ending unpleasantness is possible in this lifetime while still being alive.

...he gives up all latent tendencies to greed, drives out all latent tendencies to aversion, and completely destroying the latent tendency to measure as `I be', dispels ignorance, arouses science, and here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

MN 9
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:36 pm

Sunrise wrote:I am not talking about old age, sickness and death in different contexts. I am talking about the womb in the context of dependent origination.

Yes, I understood that. But this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general, and the womb is mentioned in many sutta discussions of kamma and rebirth.

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:49 pm

mikenz66 wrote:this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general

Wow do I ever feel dopey...I have no idea what's happening here...18 replies and only Alex123 seemed to even come close (maybe, i can't tell) to answering the OP.
No worries, I'll keep listening.
:popcorn:
Last edited by lojong1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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