Recommend 3 good Pali translators

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Sunrise
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Re: Recommend 3 good Pali translators

Post by Sunrise »

mikenz66 wrote: Seriously? It's useful to have those translations, but I often find them almost impossible to read.
I don't have any problems there. Besides it has the pali right next to it so you can always cross reference.

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Sunrise
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Re: Recommend 3 good Pali translators

Post by Sunrise »

mikenz66 wrote:Ven Thanissaro's tranlations at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another not so great translation which has biases. I have found several places where the word "womb" has been added (within brackets of course but still an unnecessary bias) where the womb is not mentioned in the pali

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mikenz66
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Re: Recommend 3 good Pali translators

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sunrise,
Sunrise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Ven Thanissaro's tranlations at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another not so great translation which has biases. I have found several places where the word "womb" has been added (within brackets of course but still an unnecessary bias) where the womb is not mentioned in the pali
Sure, I'd pick Bhikkhu Bodhi over Ven Thanissaro for depth of scholarship and exposition of the various possible readings, but it is always interesting to compare.

Since I'm not fluent in Pali, or the historical context, I really have to rely on translators. But, to comment on one of your points, my understanding of the prevailing Brahaminical view at the time (from reading the work of Richard Gombrich, such as "What the Buddha Thought", for example) is that "other world" refers to a world after death. In which case "next world" is a sensible way to render it in English.

Perhaps one of our Pali/Historical experts would like to comment on these issues. I have nothing to add.

Mike
Sunrise
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Re: Recommend 3 good Pali translators

Post by Sunrise »

mikenz66 wrote: Sure, I'd pick Bhikkhu Bodhi over Ven Thanissaro for depth of scholarship and exposition of the various possible readings, but it is always interesting to compare.

Since I'm not fluent in Pali, or the historical context, I really have to rely on translators.
I agree. Not being too fluent in pali myself I also have no option but to reply on translations.
mikenz66 wrote: But, to comment on one of your points, my understanding of the prevailing Brahaminical view at the time (from reading the work of Richard Gombrich, such as "What the Buddha Thought", for example) is that "other world" refers to a world after death. In which case "next world" is a sensible way to render it in English.

Perhaps one of our Pali/Historical experts would like to comment on these issues. I have nothing to add.
Forget about "paraloka". Take the word womb for example. Specific pali words for womb could be "gabbasaya", "gabba", "lingehi". I have seen the word womb added in by some English translators where no such word is referred to in the pali. Although it is added within brackets it is still an unnecessary bias which motivates the reader to think in terms of many lifetimes and dilute them from thinking in terms of moment to moment in this lifetime. I'm just saying that it is better to watch out for such translator's biases, which I see are at a minimum in metta.lk

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mikenz66
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Re: Recommend 3 good Pali translators

Post by mikenz66 »

On the other hand, one should be careful about other biases. My understanding is that in those cases where "womb" is added is where there is a "descent" talked about, it is arguable that comparison with other Suttas, and other background information, would indicate that it is implied by the wording. As I said, 'm no expert, but clearly I am much more likely to be guided by Bhikkhu's Bodhi, Thanissaro, Nanananda, etc,or Profs Gombrich, Gethin, Harvey, etc, than by the particular preferences of a non-expert....

As far I can understand, all of the above scholars are quite clear that the texts discuss post-mortem rebirth.

I think it would be sensible to separate what the language and the context implies from other questions, such as:
  • Were these teachings just to cater to then-current views?
  • Where exactly is the Buddha being metaphorical rather than literal?
  • Is there any point in worrying about such things?
Those are valid questions/concerns but I think that resolving them is a much deeper issue than fixating on one or two minor matters of translation.

And, of course, many would say that it's irrelevant, and one should just get on with the 8-fold Path...

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Mike
Sunrise
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Re: Recommend 3 good Pali translators

Post by Sunrise »

mikenz66 wrote:My understanding is that in those cases where "womb" is added is where there is a "descent" talked about
Btw. the pali word has the meaning of "to grow or to develop" not necessarily descent: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :4371.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Descent would mean something is landing on a womb. However growing is something that an fetus does :)
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