Internal Dialogue
- jcsuperstar
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Re: Internal Dialogue
i don't know about balancing mindfulness and concentration but every teacher that i can think of makes it clear that there is always at least some mindfulness needed for concentration and concentration needed for mindfulness the two are never mutually exclusive practices.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Internal Dialogue
Hi 5heaps,
I fear you lost me. Too complicated for me. Could you please explain it again.
I fear you lost me. Too complicated for me. Could you please explain it again.
I don't understand what you mean by object and subject here. As far as I would use the terms "the enterprise" is always an object of my awareness, never a subject, whether it arises as a memory (of a picture for example), or a visual imagination, or as an image based on visual data from the physical eyes by watching it on screen. It is always an object of awareness.5heaps wrote:so complicated but i thought of a decent way of trying to explainFreawaru wrote:Isn't there a fresh contact with the object, too - just not with the five senses but with the sixth ?
"the enterprise" is a sankhara and so it conditions the mental consciousess which is cognizing. in this sense, the sankhara "the enterprise" in the process of imagining the enterprise in the new star trek movie is the subject not the object.
Re: Internal Dialogue
Thanks for clarifying that is was mindfulness you were referring to, not insight!!
However, the usual balance I'm familiar with is concentration vs energy. You can't have too much mindfulness according to the paradigm that the Mahasi teachers follow, and the commentaries. See the book I referenced, for example, or the Visuddhimagga IV 45-49
Bhante G teaches a different approach. Nothing wrong with that, of course, different teachers use different ways of guiding their students.
Mike
However, the usual balance I'm familiar with is concentration vs energy. You can't have too much mindfulness according to the paradigm that the Mahasi teachers follow, and the commentaries. See the book I referenced, for example, or the Visuddhimagga IV 45-49
Bhante G teaches a different approach. Nothing wrong with that, of course, different teachers use different ways of guiding their students.
Mike
Re: Internal Dialogue
Hi Freawaru,
The last few days I've spent some time taking that mental "music" mentioned early in this thread as the object of meditation, and it's really just a sequence of thoughts, but instead of words or images, it's sounds. When I put attention on it, it would stop, and as soon as attention wandered it started up again, then stopped when I looked at it again. It was just like that Ninja Cat video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzzjgBAaWZw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Anyway, each note or even piece of a note, was nothing more than it's own separate thought; in other words the mental background music has to be sustained by continually generating thoughts.
Probably just the word "thoughts" will encompass all the things you mentioned, like "forms" encompasses all the visual stuff the eye perceives.
Well, I kind of lumped it all together there, but of course you can categorize however you like.Freawaru wrote:Hi octathlon
Hmm, I am not sure how you define "ideas or thoughts". Personally, I would discern between ideas, thoughts, memories, imaginations (imaginations can actually be not only visual but also tactile and auditive, etc), interconnections (when we suddenly see how the pieces of a puzzle fit together), and so on.octathlon wrote:Hi Freawaru,Ideas or thoughts.Freawaru wrote: and what about the sense: mind? Isn't mind also a sense in Buddhism? What do we perceive via this sense?
eye-->forms
ear-->sounds
nose-->smells
tongue-->tastes
body-->tactile sensations
mind-->ideas
The last few days I've spent some time taking that mental "music" mentioned early in this thread as the object of meditation, and it's really just a sequence of thoughts, but instead of words or images, it's sounds. When I put attention on it, it would stop, and as soon as attention wandered it started up again, then stopped when I looked at it again. It was just like that Ninja Cat video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzzjgBAaWZw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Anyway, each note or even piece of a note, was nothing more than it's own separate thought; in other words the mental background music has to be sustained by continually generating thoughts.
Probably just the word "thoughts" will encompass all the things you mentioned, like "forms" encompasses all the visual stuff the eye perceives.
Re: Internal Dialogue
standard meaning, but i understand that it is confusing or seems contradictory to say "the enterprise" is the subject. it has to do with the difference between "the enterprise" and the enterprise. this is useful:Freawaru wrote:I don't understand what you mean by object and subject here.
Congruent and Noncongruent Affecting Variables (sankhara/samskara)
is there some essence to the experience which makes that experience the experience of the enterprise?As far as I would use the terms "the enterprise" is always an object of my awareness, never a subject, whether it arises as a memory (of a picture for example), or a visual imagination, or as an image based on visual data from the physical eyes by watching it on screen. It is always an object of awareness.
is the experience 1 substantial package in the way that it seems to be?
even with a google image of the enterprise there is nothing in the form alone which makes it an experience of the enterprise. so, its not quite clear that the enterprise is entirely the object.
if it was the object entirely then anyone who saw the object would see the enterprise
.
.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Re: Internal Dialogue
Hi octathlon,
YesThe last few days I've spent some time taking that mental "music" mentioned early in this thread as the object of meditation, and it's really just a sequence of thoughts, but instead of words or images, it's sounds.
Yes. In my experience the mental music does not stop any more when I pay attention to it. Thus I can watch every mental sound arise, stay and go away again. Some sounds stay longer, others shorter. Some are there simultaneously. It is an useful exercise because it is so similar to observing thoughts - they, too, can stay simultaneously for example. Be harmonic with each other or disharmonic.When I put attention on it, it would stop, and as soon as attention wandered it started up again, then stopped when I looked at it again. Anyway, each note or even piece of a note, was nothing more than it's own separate thought; in other words the mental background music has to be sustained by continually generating thoughts.
Must be so.Probably just the word "thoughts" will encompass all the things you mentioned, like "forms" encompasses all the visual stuff the eye perceives.
Re: Internal Dialogue
That's interesting, Freawaru. I often have my regular thoughts going on "simultaneously" with the music.
In many ways the mental music works really well as a meditation object, maybe because it's so reliable like the breath (in those of us who have the problem really bad anyway).
side note: Oh no, I notice from my previous post that I put the apostrophe in "it's" when I meant the possessive "its". I knew that would start happening one of these days, now that it seems to have become the standard.
In many ways the mental music works really well as a meditation object, maybe because it's so reliable like the breath (in those of us who have the problem really bad anyway).
side note: Oh no, I notice from my previous post that I put the apostrophe in "it's" when I meant the possessive "its". I knew that would start happening one of these days, now that it seems to have become the standard.
Re: Internal Dialogue
Hi 5heaps,
This is an interesting process to observe. At times something arises in the mind (especially with increasing concentration) but when the content of it is compared to concepts there is no overlap found. No recognition. My mind has a lot of problems to deal with these kind of mind objects and there is no way to talk about them because of the lacking concepts and thus lacking terminology.
Yes. "Enterprise notes awareness" does not make that much sense to me. "Awareness notes Enterprise" however does.5heaps wrote:standard meaning, but i understand that it is confusing or seems contradictory to say "the enterprise" is the subject.Freawaru wrote:I don't understand what you mean by object and subject here.
Oh dear. All those Tibetan concepts . Will take me days to understand that link ...it has to do with the difference between "the enterprise" and the enterprise. this is useful:
Congruent and Noncongruent Affecting Variables (sankhara/samskara)
As usual I have no idea what is meant by "essence" or "substance". I mean, when I observe a memory arising what kind of substance or essence do you expect it to have? What kind of essence or substance could it have?is there some essence to the experience which makes that experience the experience of the enterprise?As far as I would use the terms "the enterprise" is always an object of my awareness, never a subject, whether it arises as a memory (of a picture for example), or a visual imagination, or as an image based on visual data from the physical eyes by watching it on screen. It is always an object of awareness.
is the experience 1 substantial package in the way that it seems to be?
Well, to be precise the experience is the noting. The noting has objects, for example a memory. And the memory has a content, for example the picture of a starship. I would not say that I experience the starship Enterprise. What I experience is noting the arising of a memory, and only when I experience noting my mind comparing this memories content to the more abstract concepts build on the base of former contents of visual sense contacts and memories the content of this specific memory is recognised as "starship Enterprise".even with a google image of the enterprise there is nothing in the form alone which makes it an experience of the enterprise. so, its not quite clear that the enterprise is entirely the object.
This is an interesting process to observe. At times something arises in the mind (especially with increasing concentration) but when the content of it is compared to concepts there is no overlap found. No recognition. My mind has a lot of problems to deal with these kind of mind objects and there is no way to talk about them because of the lacking concepts and thus lacking terminology.
I don't understand this remark. I mean, don't you see the memories content in it's entirety? What is lacking?
if it was the object entirely then anyone who saw the object would see the enterprise
Re: Internal Dialogue
Hi octathlon,
There is another useful aspect to it. It is not only reliable like breath but it is faster than breath. Thus one has to automatically increase ones temporal resolution by increasing the concentration. Also, it seems to me that for people of our time music is more accessible than breath because without some serious training few people have a good awareness of breath in the first place. But music? Everybody knows how to be aware of music for hours - it just takes a slight shift of priority from there.
Why, yes. By "simultaneously" I mean regarding that level of discernment. It is probably not simultaneously on the level of the Abhidhammic Planck time.octathlon wrote:That's interesting, Freawaru. I often have my regular thoughts going on "simultaneously" with the music.
In many ways the mental music works really well as a meditation object, maybe because it's so reliable like the breath (in those of us who have the problem really bad anyway).
There is another useful aspect to it. It is not only reliable like breath but it is faster than breath. Thus one has to automatically increase ones temporal resolution by increasing the concentration. Also, it seems to me that for people of our time music is more accessible than breath because without some serious training few people have a good awareness of breath in the first place. But music? Everybody knows how to be aware of music for hours - it just takes a slight shift of priority from there.
Really? I didn't notice - please don't notice all those typos I write in returnside note: Oh no, I notice from my previous post that I put the apostrophe in "it's" when I meant the possessive "its". I knew that would start happening one of these days, now that it seems to have become the standard.
Re: Internal Dialogue
Of course. A certain level of concentration is required for insight to arise. That's one of the key points.Freawaru wrote: Yes. Looks like even the dry insight Method teaches concentration practice - especially at retreats
Mike
Re: Internal Dialogue
theres included both an abhidharmakosha pov and a mindonly pov. theres not much of a difference and just ignore the short mindonly section.Freawaru wrote:All those Tibetan concepts Will take me days to understand that link ...5heaps wrote:it has to do with the difference between "the enterprise" and the enterprise. this is useful:
Congruent and Noncongruent Affecting Variables (sankhara/samskara)
also its a small article and not very complicated, yet useful
I don't understand this remark. I mean, don't you see the memories content in it's entirety? What is lacking?
so there is this second memory which is used to recognize the first memory of an unnamed starship. this second memory which contains colours, shapes etc must have "enterprise-ness" encompassing these colours etc. it must or else what else is "the enterprise"?the content of this specific memory is recognised as "starship Enterprise".
im a little obsessed about this valid perception stuff so when your eyes glaze over too much please excuse yourself
the enterprise is like atta because atta too gives the impression that it is the real nature of its parts (the heaps).
.
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A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Re: Internal Dialogue
Hi 5heaps,
Yes. Definitely. This can be seen when something completely knew to the mind arises. No recognition happens. But the second time it arises recognition can take place - even if sometimes just as "this has happened before - whatever it is". If the first (or later arisings) of the new dhamma somehow interfered with other, already known and conceptualised, dhammas, this is part of the re-cognition. But if it is completely new it is more like: "pure energy, unknown matter, not in files of the data bank"5heaps wrote:I don't understand this remark. I mean, don't you see the memories content in it's entirety? What is lacking?so there is this second memory which is used to recognize the first memory of an unnamed starship.the content of this specific memory is recognised as "starship Enterprise".
The second memory is a concept. A specific pattern. When the content of the first memory (also a pattern) is somewhat similar to the second memory (a broader pattern) they are recognised as identical. The process sometimes fails. At times we recognise wrongly, say, we see someone from behind and think we know this person but when the person turns we see it differently. So if you want you could call the pattern itself the "enterprise-ness" because that IS "the Enterprise" - at least in our heads.this second memory which contains colours, shapes etc must have "enterprise-ness" encompassing these colours etc. it must or else what else is "the enterprise"?
The personality of a human is just another pattern. This is how we recognise ourselves, too, namely by comparing patterns. There are mental dysfunctions when this self-recognition process fails due to various reasons. The difference between the pattern "Enterprise" and the pattern "Freawaru" is that the Enterprise-pattern is not linked to the motor activity and other senses of the wake state. Otherwise we would get the impression that the personality is the "starship Enterprise" rather than, say, Freawaru. This actually happens sometimes during dreams (well, not necessarily with a spaceship). Sometimes we dream that we are somebody else, the mental and physical patterns of the first person singular during dream can be quite different than during wake.the enterprise is like atta because atta too gives the impression that it is the real nature of its parts (the heaps).
Re: Internal Dialogue
hi,
in fact you would never need memory to recognize the enterprise, because the enterprise would appear since it encompasses the pattern, and the pattern was seen.
but this leads to many absurdities. if "that [pattern] IS the enterprise" seeing the pattern means seeing the enterprise. this means an eskimo from 500 years ago would see the enterprise, a dog would see the enterprise etc. also, if that pattern is the enterprise, a slight change in the pattern could no longer be the enterprise - for example if it got a scratch. and so on.Freawaru wrote:call the pattern itself the "enterprise-ness" because that IS "the Enterprise"
in fact you would never need memory to recognize the enterprise, because the enterprise would appear since it encompasses the pattern, and the pattern was seen.
no patterns of this type! there is no unchanging object which is an interval of the 5 heaps. there is no monolithic object which encompasses the 5 heaps. and there is no independent object which is itself the 5 heaps and yet is not findable among them.The personality of a human is just another pattern. This is how we recognise ourselves, too, namely by comparing patterns.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/khandha.html wrote:Sister Vajira:
"What? Do you assume a 'being,' Mara?
Do you take a position?
This is purely a pile of fabrications.
Here no living being
can be pinned down.
Just as when, with an assemblage of parts,
there's the word,
chariot,
even so when aggregates are present,
there's the convention of
a being.
For only stress is what comes to be;
stress, what remains & falls away.
Nothing but stress comes to be.
Nothing ceases but stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/vonglasenapp/wheel002.html wrote:According to Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 22, a doctrine that proclaims "The same is the world and the self. This I shall be after death; imperishable, permanent, eternal!" (see Brh. UP. 4, 4, 13), was styled by the Buddha a perfectly foolish doctrine. On the other side, the Katha-Upanishad (2, 1, 14) does not see a way to deliverance in the Buddhist theory of dharmas (impersonal processes): He who supposes a profusion of particulars gets lost like rain water on a mountain slope; the truly wise man, however, must realize that his Atman is at one with the Universal Atman, and that the former, if purified from dross, is being absorbed by the latter, "just as clear water poured into clear water becomes one with it, indistinguishably."
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Re: Internal Dialogue
Hi 5heaps,
In some aspects the human mind works similar to a computer. What happens inside the computer when a new information is entered ?
I don't understand what you mean here. Please explain.5heaps wrote:hi,but this leads to many absurdities. if "that [pattern] IS the enterprise" seeing the pattern means seeing the enterprise. this means an eskimo from 500 years ago would see the enterprise, a dog would see the enterprise etc. also,Freawaru wrote:call the pattern itself the "enterprise-ness" because that IS "the Enterprise"
No. First, it only takes a similarity not an identity for the mind to recognise the pattern. And second - of course the concept pattern (that what a sense pattern is compared to to be recognised) is changeable. In fact most are changing all the time, due to memory loss (parts of the pattern will get lost if not used often), interconnection with other mind processes such as imagination (every thought or imagination one has about the Enterprise will change the pattern) and so on. It is a fluid process.if that pattern is the enterprise, a slight change in the pattern could no longer be the enterprise - for example if it got a scratch. and so on.
In some aspects the human mind works similar to a computer. What happens inside the computer when a new information is entered ?
What do you mean by "the enterprise would appear"?in fact you would never need memory to recognize the enterprise, because the enterprise would appear since it encompasses the pattern, and the pattern was seen.
Re: Internal Dialogue
i dont mean anything other than the straightforward thing being said.. since the pattern and the enterprise are one and the same, even a stoneage mind or a dog mind which observes the pattern will see the enterprise. or else there is nothing about the pattern which is the enterprise. in which case, why recognize it as the enterprise.Freawaru wrote:I don't understand what you mean here. Please explain.5heaps wrote:but this leads to many absurdities. if "that [pattern] IS the enterprise" seeing the pattern means seeing the enterprise. this means an eskimo from 500 years ago would see the enterprise, a dog would see the enterprise etc. also,Freawaru wrote:call the pattern itself the "enterprise-ness" because that IS "the Enterprise"
whats the concept pattern? raw sense data like colours and shapes appear directly not conceptuallyAnd second - of course the concept pattern (that what a sense pattern is compared to to be recognised) is changeable.
just ordinary usage.. appear to the mind, appear in the mind, be known by the mind, is realized, etcWhat do you mean by "the enterprise would appear"?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."