How common is stream entry?

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:11 pm

Shonin wrote:
Anicca wrote:And how would you feel if when asking your 11 year daughter if she is still a virgin she replies:




I would feel that she had an unusually sophisticated worlview for an 11 year old.


I would wonder who taught her this line. ;)
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby nyanasuci » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:29 am

Being a sotāpanna is rare thing nowadays. As soon as one becomes a sotāpanna one is possessed of aparapaccayā ñānam, or 'knowledge that does not depend upon anyone else': this knowledge is also said to be 'not shared by puthujjanas', and the man who has it has (except for accelerating his progress) no further need to hear the Teaching—in a sense he is (in part) that Teaching.

Some more things can be found also at:
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=49
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50

the article from the Dummies.com is quite misleading. No need to comment on it since - as it seems - you are aware of it.
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby chandrafabian » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:37 pm

Dear friends, in my opinion people who achieved Sotapanna may be much more than we thought, I used to have impression Magga-Phala achievement is nearly impossible in this modern day, especially with a lot of amusement around.

But after longer intensive Vipassana retreat, I know my conviction was wrong. Magga-Phala can be achieved by many of us. The problem why we can not achieve Magga is because we start with many assumptions and attached to this assumptions without willing to let it go. In many cases the greatest obstacle is attachment to our own assumptions, not incapabilities.

Mettacittena,
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Zom » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:45 pm

I think it is quite common.

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners...


(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html)

**

By the way, one should remember that a sotapanna is a pair of individuals. First is that one who's got phala (dropped 3 fetters), and another one has got only the path (sotapattimagga) and he hasn't yet dropped 3 fetters (though he will do this for sure in that very life). Both are called "sotapanna" or "stream-enterer".
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby oxen » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:15 am

I too often reflect on stream entry, and I've also realized that my motives were not as purely intellectual as I once thought.

For one thing, my interest in stream entry was rising from a craving -- one for the emotional satisfaction and lasting peace I imagined myself feeling, if I too were a stream enterer!

I also realized the danger that I might use material I read about stream entry to either disparage myself ("You're still not there!") or to become complacent ("You're close enough!"), depending on the position taken in whatever I was listening to or reading.

Best to not worry about it.
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傳傑優婆塞
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:37 am

oxen wrote:I too often reflect on stream entry, and I've also realized that my motives were not as purely intellectual as I once thought.

For one thing, my interest in stream entry was rising from a craving -- one for the emotional satisfaction and lasting peace I imagined myself feeling, if I too were a stream enterer!

I also realized the danger that I might use material I read about stream entry to either disparage myself ("You're still not there!") or to become complacent ("You're close enough!"), depending on the position taken in whatever I was listening to or reading.

Best to not worry about it.
The truly dangerous thing is not seeing that one's craving can color one's experience to the extent that one may imagine one's self being a sotapanna when that really is not case.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Reductor » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:The truly dangerous thing is not seeing that one's craving can color one's experience to the extent that one may imagine one's self being a sotapanna when that really is not case.


This is true.

If some 'attainment' leads a person to complacency, then I'd say that they've more likely gone astray than accomplished anything of worth. So regardless of where on the path you fancy yourself to be, continue to developed it to its culmination. Nothing less will do.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby pilgrim » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:36 am

One quality of a Sotapanna is that he is incapable of lying to cover up any wrong deeds.
""Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path" ~ Ratana Sutta
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:41 pm

Zom wrote:I think it is quite common.

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners...


(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html)

**

By the way, one should remember that a sotapanna is a pair of individuals. First is that one who's got phala (dropped 3 fetters), and another one has got only the path (sotapattimagga) and he hasn't yet dropped 3 fetters (though he will do this for sure in that very life). Both are called "sotapanna" or "stream-enterer".

Two points Zom.

First of all, from you quote above you seem to think that stream-entry may be very common. Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked. You have verbally attacked all stream-winners that announce themselves in another thread. This seems to be the real trend. So if you ever meet one if you will only attack him or her?

Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:51 pm

Rough estimates: 30% in a meditation class attain jhana. Stream entry, somewhat less, but not by much. I think it varies with the method. I have heard that practising the U Pandita method ordained people can take up to seven years (according to a U Panditha style meditation teacher). Shorter in methods that use jhana, yonisomanasikara in my opinion. Also short (2-4 months) for people for a couple of people who will have very good faculties in every group of people. Another lot may take upto 1-2 years. After that...I dont have the stats (That is whether the others manage to overcome their problems and progress). But the good news is if you are a faith-follower or a dhamma-follower you are assured of stream entry at the point of death. Just believe in the impermanence of everything and devote yourself to the developtment of the faculties (ie meditate)!

Incidentally anyone who has enough motivation to become deluded that he/she is a stream entrant is not likely to stay that way for long because of their motivation to keep on practising/engaging with the dhamma (unless they have completely wrong view I suppose).

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby nyanasuci » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:55 pm

Virgo wrote:Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.

Read also Ven. Nanavira from Notes on Dhamma: http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=69
And Ven. Kheminda: http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/ ... d-nibbana/
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:17 pm

:goodpost:
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:03 pm

nyanasuci wrote:
Virgo wrote:Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.

Read also Ven. Nanavira from Notes on Dhamma: http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=69
And Ven. Kheminda: http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/ ... d-nibbana/

I suggest you read this thread (http://dhammasnippets.webs.com/apps/for ... ?page=last) including the two articles by Narada at the end.

Be well,

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Zom » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:47 pm

Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked.


"Don't tell anyone that you are enlightened or you will spend the rest of your life proving this to others" )) (c) Ajahn Brahm

Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta


Suttas don't support this point of view. Take for example Dakkhinavibhanga sutta, where it is said that you can make an offering (to gain merit) either to sotapatiimagga, or to sotapattiphala. That means that these are 2 different people and not a single one. Plus don't forget about common passage, where Buddha describes the sangha of the noble ones: "four when taken as pairs or eight when taken as individuals" :reading:
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:06 pm

Zom wrote:
Suttas don't support this point of view. Take for example Dakkhinavibhanga sutta, where it is said that you can make an offering (to gain merit) either to sotapatiimagga, or to sotapattiphala. That means that these are 2 different people and not a single one. Plus don't forget about common passage, where Buddha describes the sangha of the noble ones: "four when taken as pairs or eight when taken as individuals" :reading:

There is a distinction because someone who has attained the path has not yet attained the fruit. The moments have different functions. The path moment removes the defilements. So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.

Someone who has attained the path has not yet attained the fruit, so therefore there are eight types-- each type of ariya that has attained the path, and each type that has attained the fruit. Again the moments serve different functions. Magga moment is the cause, and phala is the result.

Be well,

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:50 pm

Virgo wrote:So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.


Sounds like you'd have to have some really fast hands and either the iddhi to know another's mind or a person with it standing over your shoulder to let you know precisely when to give the offering. "Okay, put the food in the bowl.... now! Oh gosh, too slow, the magga-citta was already over."

Defining path fruitions in this way makes giving an offering to a sotapatti-magga person into some kind psychic whack-a-mole.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:04 pm

Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote:So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.


Sounds like you'd have to have some really fast hands and either the iddhi to know another's mind or a person with it standing over your shoulder to let you know precisely when to give the offering. "Okay, put the food in the bowl.... now! Oh gosh, too slow, the magga-citta was already over."

Defining path fruitions in this way makes giving an offering to a sotapatti-magga person into some kind psychic whack-a-mole.

You can think whatever you like.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:23 pm

Virgo wrote: Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked. You have verbally attacked all stream-winners that announce themselves in another thread. This seems to be the real trend. So if you ever meet one if you will only attack him or her?
Attack? You put yourself out there on a public forum, which makes your claim open to discussion and question. One other person here has publicly claimed of himself stream winner status. It was done in passing in a thread not started by him and not devoted to announcing to the world his new credential. Though I question any self claim, this person's claim was done in a low keyed manner that really did not draw attention to himself; rather, it made a point about practice. After a brief discussion, it was never mentioned again. Markedly lacking the self-promotion aspect of your claim, his claim, for that reason alone, was far more credible than yours.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:30 pm

Virgo wrote:You can think whatever you like.


Likewise.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote:You can think whatever you like.

Likewise.

Really? Do thoughts not arise due to conditions...? :stirthepot:

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