Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Sylvester
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:10 am


Sylvester
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:19 am

Hi Tilt

Just managed to locate an online copy of Ven Analayo's "From Craving to Liberation - Excursion to the Thought World of the Pali Discourses (1).

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... raving.pdf

The internal/external satipatthanas and the 2 Deliverances are addressed at p.145

Lest his list of publications be lost again, here it is as of today -

www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/.../ ... ations.pdf

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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:29 am


dhamma follower
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby dhamma follower » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:39 pm


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legolas
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby legolas » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:21 am

Internal could be equated with ones own personal experience, and external by inference and observation. The understanding gained from contemplating the rise and fall of material aggregate externally could be applied to yourself internally. This method is taught by the Buddha to Rahula.


and a further understanding can be gained here-



The external form elements are understood and a perception of there nonself is acquired to develop a similar view towards ones own body.

The feelings, emotions etc that one feels internally can be applied by inference and observation to other beings, with the understanding of arising/passing/cessation.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:37 am


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legolas
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby legolas » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:11 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:25 am


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legolas
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby legolas » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:37 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:15 am


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legolas
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby legolas » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:38 am

I am sorry I must have misunderstood, you used the phrase "direct perception" as if it was something different from perception.
I don't really understand your example of the "gut" in relation to internal & external. How does recollection of the gut back up "traditionalist views" on internal & external.
Rather than read Ven Analayo's extended discussion I think you should read http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

If you were to read this sutta and MN 62 you would have the actual teachings.
As it is I will look up the reference you have given.

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mikenz66
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:18 am

Hi Legolas,

I can't really speak for Tilt, but I don't think he is particularly disagreeing with you. As you say, a straightforward reading of the the Suttas is that external means someone else, and this is the view of the commentaries.

Tilt's point is that the objection "How can you discern XXX in an external person"? is no more of an objection than "How can you discern the internal body parts?" In either case, it's a conceptual meditation rather than a direct experience of a physical or mental object.

The commentarial view is that the Satipatthana Sutta contains some meditation objects that are conceptual (such as the body parts or charnel ground contemplations), and some that are "direct experience" (such as a painful feeling in one's own body or in one's own mind).

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:22 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:29 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:58 am


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legolas
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby legolas » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:19 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:32 am


lojong1
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby lojong1 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:49 am


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legolas
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby legolas » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:40 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:02 am



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