Celibacy

[PeterB]

The Dalai Lama of course like all higher ranking practitioners of the Higher Tantras would probably have his Sang-Yum. ( spiritual consort ) As did all his predecessors, as did all the Karmapas etc.
This is not considered to be a breach of the Vinaya. Although it involves penetrative sex.

[Kenshou]

...huh.

[Ben]

This is not considered to be a breach of the Vinaya.

I think it would depend on who you are talking to,wouldn't it?

I am seeing a lot of aversion here and not so much upekkha.

Yeah. Ya can't get it, so ya might as well hate it.

Quote of the day!

[PeterB]

Surely Ben. I meant that within the Vajrayana it is not considered a breach of the Vinaya.

Most of the main teachers have their Sang-Yums or " secret " consorts. With some teachers they are not secret at all particularly with the Nyingmapa who are mostly not monastic.
Among the monastic traditions of the Gelug and Kagyu these things are conducted with more circumspection.
The object is to master a particular Tantric technique called " Karmamudra"....information regarding these practices are understandably hard to come by outside of a one to one relationship with a teacher, where they are imparted by word of mouth.

But in terms of the Theravada I digress....

[Vepacitta]

" ... where they are imparted by word of mouth"

Brings such ... images to mind ...

V.

[Ytrog]

I apologise for necromancing this thread but I have a video on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/user/BuddhistSoc ... XocSGQFvmw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

People who know my posts (I'm not even registered here for a week though) know that I have posted from this source earlier.

[manas]

I've been trying to apply Buddha's teaching on analyzing the impurities of the body, imagining the pretty girl as an old woman, as a corpse, etc. It works a little bit but not enough.

Sometimes I do this the other way around. I look at old women on the train (very discreetly so as not to offend) and really examine how the flesh that was once firm has now sagged, the skin that was once smooth is now wrinkled and blotched, the gait that was once graceful is now plodding. They were once young girls full of youth, beauty, charm and dreams, just like my daughters are now. When I approach it from this angle, my heart softens. It makes me reflect (regarding younger women) "this beauty is deceptive, it is a trap! (for them as well as me)...do not be averse, but rather, have compassion!"

[Dan74]

Hi all, I'm posting here cos I am in a hurry and don't know where else to post...I wonder if any other householder experimenting with complete sexual abstinence has found that just when they have begun to taste some higher pleasure in meditation, just when they feel like they have had a GLIMPSE of what it is like to let go of the five-sense world obsession for a little while and experience a relatively still mind (and taste the sweetness of this), suddenly the defilement of lust takes a big swipe at you. Today I'm assailed by strong doubt re the higher aspects of the doctrine (stuff that I should not ponder on at this stage, but mara uses this to get me down often), and now for the first time in over a week sensual desire seems to be CALLING me! Just when I have been feeling like I have made more progress in calming the mind than ever before in this current lifetime.

This might not be the right forum for a sob story like mine. But I hope someone can advise, can a deep darkness stand on the edge of a brightness? Just when I felt some sweetness in letting go, should lust come and assail me like this? Should I press onward, or am I pressing too hard?

This must be why the Buddha encouraged pp to ordain. It is tough having to interact with the opposite sex every day while guarding the door of sight so that one does not grasp at the form with desire. I feel I'm ready to give up on celibacy, though this is probably my defilements working hard to stay alive. I am certainly confused.

(PS: I realize that 'the forms' are human beings. I have compassion and I am not averse. My anger is with myself alone; that sex desire came to so dominate me, that I have to now take such an extreme counter-measure to truly free myself. Lust is the enemy; women are not. )

My approach would be rather than wasting energy on this inner battle, to find a suitable partner (preferably Buddhist or sympathetic) and engage in healthy sexual activity.

For a layperson living in this society it is usually unhealthy and unproductive to try to be celibate. It is likely to just increase the energy around this issue at the expense of practice. There are exceptions of course, but these people (from what I've seen) are the ones who have had a very serious immersion in practice, so they are not really of the world (even as they are in it).

Occasionally a person may have such a deep affinity and commitment to Dhamma that this ceases to be important, but this is probably not (yet) the case here.

[Laurens]

I don't think celibacy is something you should enforce upon yourself, it should come from letting go of the desire.

We all know what happens with certain Catholic priests force celibacy upon themselves without actually letting go of their sexual urges. I don't think that's the way forward. Its probably best to talk with your teacher about it, and ask for the best ways to let go of sexual urges, because repressing them can harm you and others.

[Moth]

"Is it beautiful? Yes. Do I want it? No." -Ajahn Jayasaro.

...healthy sexual activity. For a layperson living in this society it is usually unhealthy and unproductive to try to be celibate.

"Now, Udàyin, the pleasure and joy that arises dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasures - a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should not be pursued, that it should not be developed, that it should not be cultivated, that it should be feared… (whereas the pleasure of the Four Jhànas). This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, that it should not be feared." (ibid p.557)

"Misguided man, in many discourses have I not stated how obstructive things are obstructive, and how they are able to obstruct one who engages in them? I have stated how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them. With the simile of skeleton… with the simile of the piece of meat… with the simile of the grasstorch… with the simile of the pit of coals… with the simile of the dream… with the simile of the borrowed goods… with the simile of the tree laden with fruit… with the simile of the slaughterhouse… with the simile of the sword stake… with the simile of the snake's head, I have stated how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them. But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time." (The Buddha in the simile of the Snake; ibid p.225f)

[bodom]

Lay or monk, the truth of the Buddha's teachings remains the same.

Ok, so then what is exactly the issue we can help you with? Would you like us to give you reasons to not be celibate? Are you looking for encouragement? If it is something you choose for yourself fine. Not everyone is ready or even able to make that kind of commitment. I know my wife certainly wouldn't be happy if I did.

Besides, celibacy is something the Buddha enjoined on his lay followers only on Uposatha days.

[Moth]

Ok, so then what is exactly the issue we can help you with? Would you like us to give you reasons to not be celibate? Are you looking for encouragement? If it is something you choose for yourself fine. Not everyone is ready or even able to make that kind of commitment.

A lot of people are asking for advice on overcoming lust on this thread. Someone claimed it was healthier to just have sex, and that an effort towards celibacy was an unproductive endeavor. I statement my disagreement. I never said all lay people should be celibate, just that sense desire leads to suffering, regardless of who or what one is. Therefore it is certainly not an effort that should be discouraged.

[Dan74]

Ok, so then what is exactly the issue we can help you with? Would you like us to give you reasons to not be celibate? Are you looking for encouragement? If it is something you choose for yourself fine. Not everyone is ready or even able to make that kind of commitment.

A lot of people are asking for advice on overcoming lust on this thread. Someone claimed it was healthier to just have sex, and that an effort towards celibacy was an unproductive endeavor. I statement my disagreement. I never said all lay people should be celibate, just that sense desire leads to suffering, regardless of who or what one is. Therefore it is certainly not an effort that should be discouraged.

It is not a question of whether sex and sexual desire is healthy and good for practice. It is clear that they are to be abandoned in due course.

And it is this "due course" that is the issue. We all start exactly where we are, whether we like it or not. And if we try for what we are not yet ready, we are not only setting ourselves up for failure but wasting a lot of energy in the process and even perhaps losing faith in the path.

Before desire is abandoned it has to be recognized as unwholesome, not just thought so. Then it is not a struggle but a natural act of leaving behind what is not useful.

Until then of course, solid ethics and restraint is conducive to practice, but this doesn't preclude having sensual pleasures which the Buddha also praised for householder:

‘Good, Gotama, wait! Other than bhikkhus, bhikkhunis and lay disciples of Gotama, who wear white clothes and lead the holy life. Is there a single lay disciple, who wears white clothes, leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, and doing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts. Has become confident of what should and should not be done, and does not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher. "Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leading the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasuresand doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more.’ -- MN 73

[Edited in consideration of the comments below.]

[ground]

IMO being "sexually active" is cultivation of attachment and distraction and entails additional worldly commitments. Analysing all this may generate the conviction that celibacy is only advantageous in the context of the path.

Kind regards

[beeblebrox]

Until then of course, solid ethics and restraint is conducive to practice, but this doesn't preclude healthy sexual relationship which the Buddha also praised for householder:

‘Good, Gotama, wait! Other than bhikkhus, bhikkhunis and lay disciples of Gotama, who wear white clothes and lead the holy life. Is there a single lay disciple, who wears white clothes, leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, and doing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts. Has become confident of what should and should not be done, and does not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher. "Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leading the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasuresand doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more.’ -- MN 73

Just to be clear... the "sensual pleasures" in Pāli doesn't really have any sexual connotations like it does in English. It refers to the pleasures that are obtained via six senses... eyes, nose, tongue, body, and mind. Sexual is just one of those pleasures... among many others, like watching TV.