How common is stream entry?

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:41 pm

Virgo wrote:]
You can think whatever you like.
There is some question about that?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

Kenshou
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:57 pm

It's pretty easy to forget.

Really? Do thoughts not arise due to conditions...?

Mike


Oh you.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby chandrafabian » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:46 am

From Kevin,
Two points Zom.

First of all, from you quote above you seem to think that stream-entry may be very common. Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked. You have verbally attacked all stream-winners that announce themselves in another thread. This seems to be the real trend. So if you ever meet one if you will only attack him or her?

Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.

Kevin

Dear friends, I agree with Kevin, it is in line with Abhidhamma and also in line with some meditation teacher's experience.

Mettacittena,
fabian

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:19 am

Forget this post and this forum.

kevin

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:38 am

Virgo wrote:Forget this post and this forum.

kevin


______________________________________________________________________________________________

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Huh? We are supposed to forget this forum: My forums: http://dhammasnippets.webs.com/ Sign up today? Having looked at it, there is not much there to remember.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Goedert » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:57 am

Virgo wrote:Forget this post and this forum.

kevin

399
He endures — unangered —
insult, assault, & imprisonment.
His army is strength;
his strength, forbearance:
he's what I call
a brahman.
400
Free from anger,
duties observed,
principled, with no overbearing pride,
trained, a 'last-body':
he's what I call
a brahman.

Not by claims,
by argumentation, or by eloquence,
is one a brahman.
Whoever has truth
& rectitude:
he is a pure one,
he, a brahman.
What's the use of claims,
you dullard?
What's the use of your speculations?
The tangle's inside you.
You comb the outside.

Adepted from:
393-394
Not by matted hair,
by clan, or by birth,
is one a brahman.
Whoever has truth
& rectitude:
he is a pure one,
he, a brahman.

What's the use of your matted hair,
you dullard?
What's the use of your deerskin cloak?
The tangle's inside you.
You comb the outside.

Dhammapada

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:03 am

Goedert wrote:
Virgo wrote:Forget this post and this forum.

kevin

399
He endures — unangered —
insult, assault, & imprisonment.
His army is strength;
his strength, forbearance:
he's what I call
a brahman.
400
Free from anger,
duties observed,
principled, with no overbearing pride,
trained, a 'last-body':
he's what I call
a brahman.



Thanks for this quote. I did not have anger when I made my post. I had dislike.

Kevin F.

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:34 am

Virgo wrote:Thanks for this quote. I did not have anger when I made my post. I had dislike.

Kevin F.
Who knows what you were referring to.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby lojong1 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:40 am

Virgo wrote:the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.

Virgo wrote:So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.

Kenshou wrote:Sounds like you'd have to have some really fast hands and either the iddhi to know another's mind or a person with it standing over your shoulder to let you know precisely when to give the offering. "Okay, put the food in the bowl.... now! Oh gosh, too slow, the magga-citta was already over." Defining path fruitions in this way makes giving an offering to a sotapatti-magga person into some kind psychic whack-a-mole.

Kenshou stole an external thought... :ban:
It is a funny picture, almost like there's a mistake somewhere.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby legolas » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:47 am

Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote:So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.


Sounds like you'd have to have some really fast hands and either the iddhi to know another's mind or a person with it standing over your shoulder to let you know precisely when to give the offering. "Okay, put the food in the bowl.... now! Oh gosh, too slow, the magga-citta was already over."

Defining path fruitions in this way makes giving an offering to a sotapatti-magga person into some kind psychic whack-a-mole.


Never underestimate the contortions people will go through to prove an impossible view.

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:01 pm

legolas wrote:
Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote:So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.


Sounds like you'd have to have some really fast hands and either the iddhi to know another's mind or a person with it standing over your shoulder to let you know precisely when to give the offering. "Okay, put the food in the bowl.... now! Oh gosh, too slow, the magga-citta was already over."

Defining path fruitions in this way makes giving an offering to a sotapatti-magga person into some kind psychic whack-a-mole.


Never underestimate the contortions people will go through to prove an impossible view.
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Vepacitta » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:19 pm

People will want to be right all the time ...

Most people cling to views ...

V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:59 pm

I think that the idea of "slacking off" would not even cross a sotapanna's mind....except perhaps as a joke!!!!! I think the concept of "sotapanna" is based on a person reaching a point where it is "damn the iceburgs....full speed ahead!!!!!.....that's what conquering doubt about the dhamma does for you.....I guess....
chownah

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby lojong1 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:08 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:
According to the Pali Commentary, six types of defilement would be abandoned by a Sotāpanna:
1.Envy
2.Jealousy
3.Hypocrisy
4.Fraud
5.Denigration
6.Domineering

it seems a rare person ideed who has given up these.

Abondoned, not just reduced? Which commentary? Is this commentary online?

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby MingMehDorji » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:29 am

A sotapanna has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. If a person would come along and say there is no Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha, and threatened to kill him if he did not agree, the stream enterer will not budge...he rather die. Stream enterers are not like worldlings who are dirt cheap abundant in the triple world. Besides they are unlikely to advertise "I am a stream enterer, know this" First we must get our facts right about Sotapannas, true ariyas.....so how common are stream enterers?

Hi,

To one who has grasped and realized Anatta, he will not react "He rather die". Even if the Citta were to arise with the thought, he will just observe and watch it dissolved and without reacting to it.

Just like a Bodhisattva will seek to become a Buddha if there's no more beings to be saved. But to a ripen conditions of Bodhisattva, whereby Anatta/Sunyata is well grasped, there's indifference as to being still suffer or not.

Achieving to this status is rare and need stringent cultivation of the 8 fold Noble path along with Vipaasana, where Wisdom and Compassion comes hand in hand.

Metta

Ming.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:30 am

MingMehDorji wrote: . . . the Citta . . . .
The Citta?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:01 am

lojong1 wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:
According to the Pali Commentary, six types of defilement would be abandoned by a Sotāpanna:
1.Envy
2.Jealousy
3.Hypocrisy
4.Fraud
5.Denigration
6.Domineering

it seems a rare person ideed who has given up these.

Abondoned, not just reduced? Which commentary? Is this commentary online?

might be linked here
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel061.html
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:26 am

Thanks jcsuperstar. Odd jumble there...looks like it's temporary abandonment for sotapatti.

At your accesstoinsight link: "Comy. repeatedly stresses that wherever in our text "abandoning" is mentioned, reference is to the non-returner (anagami); for also in the case of defilements overcome on stream-entry (see above), the states of mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of non-returning."

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby IanAnd » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:17 am

chownah wrote:I think that the idea of "slacking off" would not even cross a sotapanna's mind....except perhaps as a joke!!!!! I think the concept of "sotapanna" is based on a person reaching a point where it is "damn the iceburgs....full speed ahead!!!!!.....that's what conquering doubt about the dhamma does for you.....I guess....
chownah

Chownah, don't say "I guess." It sounds so non-committal. Speak with more authority. You've earned it.

BTW, I can relate to your description above. Despite all the varieties of definitions of sotapanna floating around in this and other threads, it seems possible that the Buddha (as opposed to the institutions that grew up around his teachings after his parinibbana and which began to categorize and doctrine-ize them) may have had a more simplified view of what reaching stream entry was about. I don't have any particular sutta passages in mind, just an overall abiding impression from the discourses that he wasn't as much of a stickler about this as some in the present day would have it.

Yes, I think doubt is definitely one of the factors a sotapanna has to overcome along with the acknowledgment about the delusion of selfhood. Having these two in place helps to bring about a rational ending to clinging to rituals (the adherence to rules and observances) as this was, after all, Gotama's response to the emptiness of Brahminism's ritualistic practice of his day as it would have, in his opinion, little effect on the empirical practice that he was endeavoring to teach and make known. When a person understands all these factors and has made a personal inner commitment to the practice, not just because it "sounds nice," but because it makes sense and has made an indelible impression on his mind, then I think we give him (or her) a break and let him acknowledge to himself, at least, this achievement. No need to make a big deal about this by announcing it all over the place. The people who know this person will see it reflected in the way he lives his life.

It also occurs to me that these "labels" of the various levels of the ariya came about not so much as a way to differentiate one follower from another in some kind of social oneupsmanship manner, but rather as a way that, privately and between friends, individual's might be able to track their own progress along the path. This obsession with making claims is just another empty practice to be dropped from one's baggage of misbegotten habits.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby legolas » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:12 am

chownah wrote:I think that the idea of "slacking off" would not even cross a sotapanna's mind....except perhaps as a joke!!!!! I think the concept of "sotapanna" is based on a person reaching a point where it is "damn the iceburgs....full speed ahead!!!!!.....that's what conquering doubt about the dhamma does for you.....I guess....
chownah


I think the end result is guaranteed but it seems that one can be lazy in getting there. I seem to recall a sutta where the Buddha sends a disciple to instil a sense of urgency to the deva Sakka, who despite being a stream entrant was whooping it up a little to much. I think the difference between a stream entrant and an arahant is like the wright brothers plane and the space shuttle. The wright brothers made the incredible leap, but as far as "perfection" goes they were a million miles off, and a lot of work left to do.


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