Experience (of?) Nibbana

[Nyana]

Note how Ven sariputta says that even the slightest sanna, the slightest arising is dukkha.

Hi RYB,

There can be no gnosis (ñāṇa) without saññā.

While I agree that person may experience magga- phala citta and progress up the path without fruition absorptions....

This is all commentarial jargon. The only fruitional samādhi mentioned in the sutta-s is the aññāphala samādhi of an arahant.

Absence cannot be impermanent, except conceptually.

Even the commentaries admit that cessation of apperception and feeling is not asaṅkhata (cf. Kathāvatthu).

All the best,

Geoff

[Nyana]

Somewhat related question:

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully pos­sessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

Does the attainment of right view without effluents occur in the moment of Nibbana (or some other ariyan att/ainment)? Is it simultaneously the cause of unbinding and a result? (in that one is "nibbanized" through right view and fully possessed of right view in Nibbana)

Hi Eric,

Whenever one is engaged in supramundane right view there is no generation of mental effluents at that time.

All the best,

Geoff

[Sunrise]

Whenever one is engaged in supramundane right view there is no generation of mental effluents at that time.

Kind of what I am trying to say.

"Super mundane right view" means that this view is not associated with effluents and a mind that recognizes the supermundane right view has no tendency to develop mental effluents.That doesn't necessarily mean that the person has attained Nibbana and destroyed all tendencies of mental effluents once and for all. A person's mind which recognized with the super mundane right view is noble as such views do not promote effluents (asava) as long as mind is attended to this view.

On the other hand, the view with effluents is still the right view but it encourages asava. Views that "there is something offered", "there is a mother and a father", "there is this and the other worlds" are all right views as they direct the mind towards moral conduct, direct the mind towards sila and dhana, well being of society, human value systems etc. but they are not associated with "letting go of the self view". They entertain the self view thus, while being right view, are not factors of the path to Nibbana.

[Sunrise]

The "right view required for liberation" is the "right view without effluents" as it directs the mind towards the super-mundane practice of letting go while "right view with effluents" directs the mind towards Dhana and moral conduct while still encouraging effluents. My opinion is that the right view with effluents is taught to householders clad in white (generally speaking) for a better lay-life but not to those who have taken the robes and gone forth:

...

"Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself."

....

"venerable sir...for a long time I have attended to the Teacher and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this."

"This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."

"In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it."

MN 143

[Nyana]

"Super mundane right view" means that this view is not associated with effluents and a mind that recognizes the supermundane right view has no tendency to develop mental effluents.That doesn't necessarily mean that the person has attained Nibbana and destroyed all tendencies of mental effluents once and for all. A person's mind which recognized with the super mundane right view is noble as such views do not promote effluents (asava) as long as mind is attended to this view.

Hi Sunrise,

I agree.

On the other hand, the view with effluents is still the right view but it encourages asava. Views that "there is something offered", "there is a mother and a father", "there is this and the other worlds" are all right views as they direct the mind towards moral conduct, direct the mind towards sila and dhana, well being of society, human value systems etc. but they are not associated with "letting go of the self view". They entertain the self view thus, while being right view, are not factors of the path to Nibbana.

One who has attained the fruition of stream entry has abandoned identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), i.e. self-view (attānudiṭṭhi), but still hasn't abandoned craving for existence (bhavataṇhā), which includes craving for a high birth, i.e. desire for form existence (rūparāga).

All the best,

Geoff

[Sunrise]

One who has attained the fruition of stream entry has abandoned identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), i.e. self-view (attānudiṭṭhi), but still hasn't abandoned craving for existence (bhavataṇhā), which includes craving for a high birth, i.e. desire for form existence (rūparāga).

Thanks Geoff. Can you please give me the sutta reference where this has been mentioned so? It seems surprising somewhat that it is possible to abandon the identity view and still have desire for continued existence. I was under the impression that the two are linked

[Nyana]

Can you please give me the sutta reference where this has been mentioned so? It seems surprising somewhat that it is possible to abandon the identity view and still have desire for continued existence. I was under the impression that the two are linked

Hi Sunrise,

• There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, and ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters. [AN 10.13]
  
  
  In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.
  
  In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.
  
  In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.
  
  In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.
  
  In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. [MN 118]

All the best,

Geoff

[rowyourboat]

Note how Ven sariputta says that even the slightest sanna, the slightest arising is dukkha.

Hi RYB,

There can be no gnosis (ñāṇa) without saññā.

Nana is with sanna. But your assumption is that nana is the same as vimutti, is not correct. Nana at it's highest pitch does something to the mind- that is sabbe sankhara samatha- the cessation of all fabrications- nibbana.

While I agree that person may experience magga- phala citta and progress up the path without fruition absorptions....

This is all commentarial jargon. The only fruitional samādhi mentioned in the sutta-s is the aññāphala samādhi of an arahant.

The suttas support the commentarial (visuddhimagga/mahasi sayadaw) understanding of the sotapanna state for example (and the path to get there). See below how a sotapanna perceives insight knowledges in line with the purifcations and the insight knowledges.

Knows and Sees Nama (Phassa, Vedana, Sanna, Cetana, and Thanha)
Knows and Sees Rupa (dhathu, sense doors)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#okkanta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Knows and Sees Vinnana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Understands Cause and Effect (has uncommon knowledge, knows saddhamma, doesn’t fall away, suffering is limited)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Knows and Sees the Paticcasamuppada

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No doubt (does not think `did I exist etc.)- Avyakata sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Knows and sees anicca, dukkha, anatta (tilakkana) –also contemplates in this manner

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sees arising and passing away (sandittika,akalika,ehipassiko,opaniko, paccattan veditabo vinnu)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

perceives Nibbida, Viraga, Nirodha-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

understands the Four Noble Truths

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

experiences nibbana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Absence cannot be impermanent, except conceptually.

Even the commentaries admit that cessation of apperception and feeling is not asaṅkhata (cf. Kathāvatthu).

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

When you read the above it can be known that to see nibbana and nirodhasamapatti are both complete cessation. Ven Sariputta clearly uses nirodhasampatti to explain the experience of nibbana. It does not say that nirodhasamapatti is not asankhata. I suggest we stick to the suttas and not dip into the commentaries as we may pick and choose the bits of commentary which favours our particular view of the dhamma.

with metta

RYB

[Nyana]

It does not say that nirodhasamapatti is not asankhata. I suggest we stick to the suttas and not dip into the commentaries as we may pick and choose the bits of commentary which favours our particular view of the dhamma.

Hi RYB,

You're the one who accepts the authority of the commentaries and the Visuddhimagga. Therefore, it seems that you're the one who wishes to pick and choose. It's an established tenet of the Mahāvihāra tradition standardized by Ven. Buddhaghoṣa that nirodhasamāpatti is neither supramundane nor asaṅkhata. Visuddhimagga 23.52:

• As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.

The suttas support the commentarial (visuddhimagga/mahasi sayadaw) understanding of the sotapanna state for example (and the path to get there). See below how a sotapanna perceives insight knowledges in line with the purifcations and the insight knowledges.

According to the Mahāvihāra tradition standardized by Ven. Buddhaghoṣa the path of stream entry is merely one mind moment in duration, followed by two or three fruition mind moments. This doesn't accord with the sutta-s or the Abhidhammapiṭaka.

Nana at it's highest pitch does something to the mind- that is sabbe sankhara samatha- the cessation of all fabrications- nibbana.

Bad translation and therefore meaningless conclusion.

All the best,

Geoff