American Buddhist Forest Tradition

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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pilgrim
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by pilgrim »

Bhavana Society's monastery in W. Virginia was established in 1982. I think that would make it one of the earliest, if not the earliest Theravadin forest monastery. Ven Vimalaramsi's bio says he ordained in Thailand. One funny thing there is that it says "I stayed at the Theravadan temple in Malaysia, and still have over 1000 Malaysian students in varying degrees of deep meditation. I returned to the United States in 1998 and have taught all across the country." Many people here remember the Ven, but they are certainly not in any degree of meditation. :thinking:
Hoo
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Hoo »

tiltbillings wrote:
mirco wrote:
He does not refer to any other teacher but the Buddha.
If he refers to himself as a bhikkhu, there needs to be a legitimate ordination lineage to which he belongs and of which he is a member in good standing. And this should be information that is easily known.
http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teache ... ntials.htm This url, credentials info, comes from their web site. I'm certainly not qualified to evaluate someone's credentials but it was easy to find, for those who believe they are qualified. For what it's worth, I've never seen the venerable addressed as anything but Bhante or Venerable, with the occaisional reference to Mahathera in print materials. So any claim to authenticity or lack thereof would be just the words of others for me. My tendency, whether the author is famous or not, is to run their teaching across the Suttas as the indication of authenticity.

Please remember that I only met those folks twice last year for brief periods, so my opinions are just that, uniformed opinions. For informaton, I've found it easy to get to their website and I suggest that others would find it easy, too. JMHO, but citing the source helps me avoid gossip.

Hoo
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tiltbillings
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by tiltbillings »

Hoo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
mirco wrote:
He does not refer to any other teacher but the Buddha.
If he refers to himself as a bhikkhu, there needs to be a legitimate ordination lineage to which he belongs and of which he is a member in good standing. And this should be information that is easily known.
http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teache ... ntials.htm This url, credentials info, comes from their web site. I'm certainly not qualified to evaluate someone's credentials but it was easy to find, for those who believe they are qualified. For what it's worth, I've never seen the venerable addressed as anything but Bhante or Venerable, with the occaisional reference to Mahathera in print materials. So any claim to authenticity or lack thereof would be just the words of others for me. My tendency, whether the author is famous or not, is to run their teaching across the Suttas as the indication of authenticity.

Please remember that I only met those folks twice last year for brief periods, so my opinions are just that, uniformed opinions. For informaton, I've found it easy to get to their website and I suggest that others would find it easy, too. JMHO, but citing the source helps me avoid gossip.

Hoo
Read through the "credentials" again and tell us where he was ordained (Thailand), at what Wat, and by whom. The "credentials" tell us very little and certainly do not answer my questions, and 4 days with the Dalai Lama? Big deal. There are a lot names thrown around, but little actual substance related to those names.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pilgrim
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by pilgrim »

I actually met the Ven more than a decade ago when he was in Malaysia. He initially had another name, which I forget, before adopting the present name. He was a popular teacher for the student groups. I have no doubt over his ordination status but the website's 4-part description of his bio seems rather over the top. But it was written by his student nun, who for some reason wears purple robes.
Hoo
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Hoo »

tiltbillings wrote:Read through the "credentials" again and tell us where he was ordained (Thailand), at what Wat, and by whom. The "credentials" tell us very little and certainly do not answer my questions, and 4 days with the Dalai Lama? Big deal. There are a lot names thrown around, but little actual substance related to those names.
Hi Tilt, I'm glad you were able to get it from the source, whatever your view of it. I don't study their method, so I don't see a reason for me reading through their materials again. I'm not the authority to question. If you still have differences or questions, seems like they can only be answered if you pursue them. I'd be happy to share my experience of being there, though it was really brief and probably of limited value. :zzz:

Re this thread, I decided to go to a published source for the discussed information rather than relying on opinions of others. I noted my inability to judge credentials and suggested that the url was a stop that could be made for those pursuing credentials info. I'm not invested in whether those credentials satisfy others or not, nor even if they satisfy me.

Like was said in another post, if you or other folks still have questions, they might be served best by taking it to the source - go to the website and ask questions in whatever venue they have for that. It beats discussing shadows and ghosts, which one is right and the most substantial. :)

Hoo
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mirco
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by mirco »

Besides all discussion about credentials:

"In 2006 Vimalaramsi was nominated to become the first USA Representative for the World Buddhist Supreme Summit Council which meets every two years. Upon approval he was inaugurated into this lifetime position on November 1, 2008 in the New Royal Grand Hall of Buddhism in Japan. The Summit represents 32 countries where Buddhism is taught through the three main schools of buddhism. The summit was originally formed in 1998 when H.H. the Dalai Lama of Tibet, Ven. Dr. Enshinjoh of Japan, and the H.H. Sangha Raja of Thailand came together with this idea. The summit seeks to re-examine the fundamental teachings and practice of the Buddha in order to help the three schools of Buddhism to recognize their commonalities in this 21st Century."

He is the laughing one:
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tiltbillings
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by tiltbillings »

Hoo wrote:Like was said in another post, if you or other folks still have questions, they might be served best by taking it to the source - go to the website and ask questions in whatever venue they have for that. It beats discussing shadows and ghosts, which one is right and the most substantial. :)

Hoo
Who knows. A lot of stuff that is not terribly "impressive." There are other teachers whose "credentials" come across a bit more solidly and genuinely based.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Hoo
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Hoo »

tiltbillings wrote:Who knows. A lot of stuff that is not terribly "impressive." There are other teachers whose "credentials" come across a bit more solidly and genuinely based.
Thanks for your view on it, Tilt. I've never been involved in reviewing credentials for monks, though I've read a few resumes in my time. Do you see elements missing from those credentials that a newbie would do well to look for when considering the center or the Venerable for a visit or a retreat? They seem to have a number of Dhamma talks in print or recorded on the website and I'd first spend some time on them, of course, to see if they speak to my Dhamma needs and practice needs.

I can vouch for the center physically being there :) They were still expanding on the complex, but it appeared to be functional from what little I saw in my brief visits. I had thought I'd do some retreat there this year but I'm really not yet tamed enough for polite Buddhist company ;) I also discovered some retreats at a closer Chan monastery, and then my health got in the way of being very far from home or gone very often. I'm hoping that will change soon and I can get around better. I haven't seen a flesh and blood Buddhist in six months.

Hoo
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mirco
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by mirco »

off topic:
tiltbillings wrote:
Hoo wrote:Like was said in another post, if you or other folks still have questions, they might be served best by taking it to the source - go to the website and ask questions in whatever venue they have for that. It beats discussing shadows and ghosts, which one is right and the most substantial.
Who knows. A lot of stuff that is not terribly "impressive." There are other teachers whose "credentials" come across a bit more solidly and genuinely based.
Hi tiltbillings,

to me, you appear not to have much faith in general. How about meditation preparing exercises like Dana? Do you meditate? Do you have a teacher?

Be Well,
:) Mirco
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tiltbillings
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by tiltbillings »

mirco wrote:off topic:
tiltbillings wrote:
Hoo wrote:Like was said in another post, if you or other folks still have questions, they might be served best by taking it to the source - go to the website and ask questions in whatever venue they have for that. It beats discussing shadows and ghosts, which one is right and the most substantial.
Who knows. A lot of stuff that is not terribly "impressive." There are other teachers whose "credentials" come across a bit more solidly and genuinely based.
Hi tiltbillings,

to me, you appear not to have much faith in general.
Certainly not in Ven V, but outside of that, you have no basis for making such a personal judgment about another person whom you have not met.
How about meditation preparing exercises like Dana? Do you meditate? Do you have a teacher?
And how is any of that your business?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Hoo
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Hoo »

:focus: Are there other centers that claim to be an American tradition besides Dhamma Sukkha? Bhante Vimalaramsi is the only one to be making that claim that I've run across but I'm not widely read or traveled.

Hoo
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tiltbillings
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by tiltbillings »

Hoo wrote::focus: Are there other centers that claim to be an American tradition besides Dhamma Sukkha? Bhante Vimalaramsi is the only one to be making that claim that I've run across but I'm not widely read or traveled.

Hoo
"an American tradition" What does that mean?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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jcsuperstar
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by jcsuperstar »

tiltbillings wrote:
Hoo wrote::focus: Are there other centers that claim to be an American tradition besides Dhamma Sukkha? Bhante Vimalaramsi is the only one to be making that claim that I've run across but I'm not widely read or traveled.

Hoo
"an American tradition" What does that mean?
at this point probably nothing good. if history shows us anything (other than that people never learn anything) for Buddhism to take root in new culture and become a part of that culture it takes pretty much a monarch converting and royal support of the religion. doesn't look like that is a possibility anytime soon. also one thing i've noticed about American lay Buddhists, and other western lay Buddhists too (though this is a broad generalization) as compared to the Thai lay Buddhists I've known, is that here you get people who form almost cult like tendencies around certain teachers, where as with Thai people i've seen them respect teachers who may in many ways be very opposed to each other's views of the dhamma, so you'll see say a Thai person who is a "fan" of both lp Buddhadasa and also some "magic" monk. where as a western follower of lp Buddhadasa generally will be rabidly against any sort of rite or ritual, magic what-have-you. or you have people who take one monk as a teacher and exclude the views of other teachers or even consider them as unorthodox or unbuddhist.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Hoo
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Hoo »

tiltbillings wrote:"an American tradition" What does that mean?
Good question, Tilt. Hopefully someone here knows more about it than you and I and can answer our questions.

Hoo
PeterB
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by PeterB »

Does it mean for example that those who have their origin outside of the USA will be excluded ? Or What ?
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