Breath this... Breath that...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Breath this... Breath that...

Post by mettafuture »

Almost every meditation teacher and book I've come across presents breath meditation as the end all - be all, the one shoe that fits everyone. If this was the case, why can nearly 39 other meditation objects be found in the Tipitaka?

Perhaps the Buddha gave us such a variety of options because he knew, depending on the individual's personality, some meditation objects would work better than others.

I often hear dhamma teachers saying that they focus their lessons on Anapanasati (breath meditation) because it was the method the Buddha himself used to reach enlightenment, and that it can fulfill all 4 establishments of mindfulness at once. But maybe the breath is too subtle of an object for some people to start with? Maybe it would be better for them if they fulfilled the 4 establishments at a slower pace, using one of the other meditation objects?

Did you know that the earliest lay Buddhist communities probably didn't even do breath meditation? Their primary objects of contemplation were likely the 6 recollections (buddha, dhamma, sangha, morality, generosity, and the devas), with the first recollection on the buddha being the primary object.

If this is the case, why is it that I can barely find a book, a dhamma talk, ect on something OTHER than the breath? :evil:

I basically have 2 questions:
- Do you think dhamma teachers should go into more detail about the other meditation objects for those who may not be ready for breath meditation?
- If I wanted to buy a book, right now, on how to meditate on something other than the breath, which book should I get? Does one, other than the Visuddhimagga, even exist?
nameless
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by nameless »

Breath meditation is very simple, it's unlikely that one would be "not ready" for breath meditation, and if so, what would make the others "easier"? The others involve some sort of visualization or meditation on abstract concepts. See http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/ob ... tation.asp

Anyway if you must have something different, metta (loving-kindness) meditation is pretty common. You might also want to look at the satipatthana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html which provides instructions meditating on body, feelings, consciousness or mental objects, though they are often linked back with the breath and is a bit hard to understand.
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by mettafuture »

nameless wrote:Breath meditation is very simple,
For you, and some others, but not everyone.
it's unlikely that one would be "not ready" for breath meditation, and if so, what would make the others "easier"?
They aren't as subtle.
The others involve some sort of visualization or meditation on abstract concepts. See http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/ob ... tation.asp
Not all of them. For example: Contemplating the hindrances.
Anyway if you must have something different, metta (loving-kindness) meditation is pretty common.
It's one of my favorite meditations to do, hence my username.
You might also want to look at the satipatthana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html which provides instructions meditating on body, feelings, consciousness or mental objects, though they are often linked back with the breath and is a bit hard to understand.
Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization by Analyo is another great resource, but it doesn't work as well as an instruction manual.
User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by legolas »

mettafuture wrote:Almost every meditation teacher and book I've come across presents breath meditation as the end all - be all, the one shoe that fits everyone. If this was the case, why can nearly 39 other meditation objects be found in the Tipitaka?

Perhaps the Buddha gave us such a variety of options because he knew, depending on the individual's personality, some meditation objects would work better than others.

I often hear dhamma teachers saying that they focus their lessons on Anapanasati (breath meditation) because it was the method the Buddha himself used to reach enlightenment, and that it can fulfill all 4 establishments of mindfulness at once. But maybe the breath is too subtle of an object for some people to start with? Maybe it would be better for them if they fulfilled the 4 establishments at a slower pace, using one of the other meditation objects?

Did you know that the earliest lay Buddhist communities probably didn't even do breath meditation? Their primary objects of contemplation were likely the 6 recollections (buddha, dhamma, sangha, morality, generosity, and the devas), with the first recollection on the buddha being the primary object.

If this is the case, why is it that I can barely find a book, a dhamma talk, ect on something OTHER than the breath? :evil:

I basically have 2 questions:
- Do you think dhamma teachers should go into more detail about the other meditation objects for those who may not be ready for breath meditation?
- If I wanted to buy a book, right now, on how to meditate on something other than the breath, which book should I get? Does one, other than the Visuddhimagga, even exist?
To a certain extent I agree. It seems the mahayana/tantra looked really hard at the six recollections and came up with all sorts of wierd & wonderful (some not so wonderful) meditations. I consider myself as a Theravada with a small t, I to have looked askance at the lack of modern teachers who teach alternative ways, other than the breath (which I personally find ok). I have read the Visuddhimagga treatment of the recollections and if they can inspire joy in someone, great but they left me deadly cold. One or two teachers have presented alternatives like Ayya Khema and Bhante Vimalaramsi, even Thanissaro Bhikhu presents breath meditation in an upbeat joyful way. I to would love to hear of a book that deals with the six recollections in an upbeat fashion. It is really important that we can arouse enthusiasm in our meditation object/subject.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by Goofaholix »

Obviously you haven't heard of the two most popular vipassana techniques in the west, the Mahasi technique, and the body sweeping technique taught by Goenka.

Both use the breath somewhat, but in both cases the breath isn't the main thing.

Anapanasati is the best entry level technique I think, so if you are attending a retreats with a lot of beginners you're likely to get Anapanasati instructions. It's easy to do but difficult to master so if you are feeling a lot of restlessness and boredom as a result of the technique then it's working, best to face up to the restlessness and boredom before thinking about changing technique.

I can recommend http://sayadawutejaniya.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a technique that doesn't use the breath.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by legolas »

Goofaholix wrote:Obviously you haven't heard of the two most popular vipassana techniques in the west, the Mahasi technique, and the body sweeping technique taught by Goenka.

Both use the breath somewhat, but in both cases the breath isn't the main thing.

Anapanasati is the best entry level technique I think, so if you are attending a retreats with a lot of beginners you're likely to get Anapanasati instructions. It's easy to do but difficult to master so if you are feeling a lot of restlessness and boredom as a result of the technique then it's working, best to face up to the restlessness and boredom before thinking about changing technique.

I can recommend http://sayadawutejaniya.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a technique that doesn't use the breath.
Yep, heard of them.
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by mettafuture »

Goofaholix wrote:Obviously you haven't heard of the two most popular vipassana techniques in the west, the Mahasi technique, and the body sweeping technique taught by Goenka.
I've heard of them too.
Both use the breath somewhat,
Exactly.
but in both cases the breath isn't the main thing.
It kind of is.
Anapanasati is the best entry level technique I think
It's great for those who don't have respiratory problems.
so if you are attending a retreats with a lot of beginners you're likely to get Anapanasati instructions.
I know...
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by Goofaholix »

mettafuture wrote: It kind of is.
Then you're kind of doing it wrong.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by mettafuture »

Goofaholix wrote:
mettafuture wrote: It kind of is.
Then you're kind of doing it wrong.
Does the Mahasi technique not tell you to follow your breath at the abdomen, note thoughts and hindrances as they arise, and then return to the breath after those thoughts have been noted?

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2 ... /mind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't try to be a smart ass with me.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by Goofaholix »

mettafuture wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:
mettafuture wrote: It kind of is.
Then you're kind of doing it wrong.
Does the Mahasi technique not tell you to follow your breath at the abdomen, note thoughts and hindrances as they arise, and then return to the breath after those thoughts have been noted?

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2 ... /mind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't try to be a smart ass with me.
The noting is the main thing, the breath is just something you can go back to when you get lost. A lot of people find they spend too much time on the breath, I did when I practised this technique, but that's just lazy practice not the intent of the technique.

Your last comment strikes me as unnecessary.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by mettafuture »

Goofaholix wrote:The noting is the main thing, the breath is just something you can go back to when you get lost.
The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.
Your last comment strikes me as unnecessary.
:rolleye:
User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by legolas »

Ahem :thinking: Back to subject...........I would still love to hear of a book that deals with the six recollections in an upbeat fashion. It is really important that we can arouse enthusiasm in our meditation object/subject.
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by Kenshou »

Anapanasati is a good basic meditation and though it may not fit every foot it seems to fit many. So they teach it a lot. There's nothing stopping you from doing something else, though, go for it.

I'd think that any of the satipatthana would be a fine stand-alone technique. Whatever works.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by Goofaholix »

mettafuture wrote: The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.
That's not how I was taught. I was taught that everything one experiences should be noticed or noted and the breath is only an anchor, something for you to return to whenever you need to so that you don't get lost.

Of course instructions for beginners probably emphasise the breath more as there is a need to establish a basic level of concentration.

In this technique I think of the breath as training wheels.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Breath this... Breath that...

Post by legolas »

Goofaholix wrote:
mettafuture wrote: The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.
That's not how I was taught. I was taught that everything one experiences should be noticed or noted and the breath is only an anchor, something for you to return to whenever you need to so that you don't get lost.

Of course instructions for beginners probably emphasise the breath more as there is a need to establish a basic level of concentration.

In this technique I think of the breath as training wheels.
"Beginner", "Training wheels"? Surely not.
Post Reply