Satipatthana sequencing

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings zavk,
zavk wrote:He suggested that, 'From awareness of the main object of meditation, the dynamics of contemplation can at any given moment lead to any of the other satipatthana exercises, and then revert to the main object.' This reading suggests that one does indeed need to proceed systematically by starting with one of the satipatthana--so we cannot accurately say that it is a 'platter of options.' But because the contemplation can give rise at any moment to any other satipatthana exercises, the systematic approach only applies to a certain extent, that is, the 'system' is really an open and porous one--so we cannot accurately say that is a 'cohesive program' either.
I agree with this. I still think it's a comprehensive program, but it needn't be a strictly chronological program. The flexibility to accommodate one's present experience by applying the most relevant/beneficial satipatthana as a response is important.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Zavk,
zavk wrote:Noted, Retro. So perhaps I shouldn't have attributed those ideas directly to Soma Thera but to those who composed the commentaries who, one might assume, were writing from within their specific context of experience.
Perhaps, yet I'm still inclined to think that if the "cleaving what is really a multi-faceted practice into self-contained units" (your words, but good words!) is what the Buddha intended, he would have said so for himself.

Given the importance of the Satipatthana practice, as measured by the phrase "the only way" (and the rest of the introduction) and the potential for arahantship within 7 days as stated in the conclusion, it's hard to imagine the Buddha being so remiss as to leave out something so significant to one's application of the teaching. It's not like anapanasati where someone could make the argument that detail might not be required because other teachers taught mindfulness of breathing as well... satipatthana is a Buddha original. He was the one who taught it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by zavk »

It's interesting that you mention the phrase 'only path' because Analayo examines the definition of the term and raises some questions about how we might understand it. It was one of the things that struck me early in his book. I won't type it out but will post again when I find the time to scan and OCR the two pages or so.

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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by zavk »

retrofuturist wrote: Perhaps, yet I'm still inclined to think that if the "cleaving what is really a multi-faceted practice into self-contained units" (your words, but good words!) is what the Buddha intended, he would have said so for himself. .....it's hard to imagine the Buddha being so remiss as to leave out something so significant to one's application of the teaching.
I don't think the Buddha intended for his teaching to be separated into units too. But given how we take the Satipatthana Sutta to be the words of the Buddha himself, we should also heed the Buddha's words in the Mahasihanada Sutta where he mentioned that even if he talked about the satipatthana for a whole century he would still not exhaust the teaching. This suggest to me that what he has said is not 'all there is to be said' about the satipatthana--that there is some leeway to interpret the satipatthana. But again, this is not to say that we accept any interpretation willy-nilly. It is imperative that we investigate any interpretation, as we are doing here.

Anyway, my point is that we we need not see the commentary like the one you have posted as attempting to cut the teaching up. If anything, if reflects the creative ways in which practitioners over the years have attempted to grasp the dhamma (nb: this is not to say that they have got it 'right'). We should be inspired to find our own creative ways to approach the dhamma.

Here's Analayo's assessment of the phrase 'only way'. I've left out the footnotes.....
The first section of the Satipatthana Sutta proper introduces the four satipatthanas as the" direct path" to realization. The passage reads:

Monks, this is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the surmounting of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of dukkha and discontent, for acquiring the true method, for the realization of Nibbana, namely, the four satipatthanas.'

The qualification of being a "direct path" occurs in the discourses almost exclusively as an attribute of satipatthana, thus it conveys a considerable degree of emphasis. Such emphasis is indeed warranted, since practice of the "direct path" of satipatthana is an indispensable requirement for liberation. As a set of verses in the Satipatthana Samyutta point out, satipatthana is the" direct path" for crossing the flood in past, present, and future times.

"Direct path" is a translation of the Pali expression ekayano maggo, made up of the parts eka, "one", ayana, "going", and magga, "path". The commentarial tradition has preserved five alternative explanations for understanding this particular expression. According to them, a path qualified as ekayano could be understood as a "direct" path in the sense of leading straight to the goal; as a path to be travelled by oneself "alone"; as a path taught by the "One" (the Buddha); as a path that is found "only" in Buddhism; or as a path which leads to "one" goal, namely to Nibbana. My rendering of ekaayano as "direct path" follows the first of these explanations. A more commonly used translation of ekiiyano is "the only path", corresponding to the fourth of the five explanations found in commentaries.

In order to assess the meaning of a particular Pali term, its different occurrences in the discourses need to be taken into account. In the present case, in addition to occurring in several discourses in relation to satipatthana, ekayano also comes up once in a different text. This is in a simile in the Mahasihanada Sutta, which describes a man walking along a path leading to a pit, such that one can anticipate him falling into the pit. This path is qualified as ekayano. In this context ekayano seems to express straightness of direction; than exclusion. To say that this path leads "directly" to the pit would be more fitting than saying that it is "the only" path leading to the pit.

Of related interest is also the Tevijja Sutta, which reports two Brahmin students arguing about whose teacher taught the only correct path to union with Brahma. Although in this context an exclusive expression like "the only path" might be expected, the qualification ekayano is conspicuously absent. The same absence recurs in a verse from the Dhammapada, which presents the noble eightfold path as "the only path". These two instances suggest that the discourses did not avail themselves of the qualification ekayano in order to convey exclusiveness.

Thus ekayano, conveying a sense of directness rather than exclusiveness, draws attention to satipatthana as the aspect of the eightfold path most "directly" responsible for uncovering a vision things as they truly are. That is, satipatthana is the "direct path” because it leads" directly" to the realization of Nibbiina.

This way of understanding also fits well with the final passage of the Satipatthana Sutta. Having stated that satipatthana practice can lead to the two higher stages of realization within a maximum of seven years, the discourse closes with the declaration: "because of this, it has been said - this is the direct path". This passage highlights the directness of satipatthana, in the sense of its potential to lead to the highest stages of realization within a limited period of time.

(From pp. 27-29.)
Metta,
zavk
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by kc2dpt »

zavk wrote:It's interesting that you mention the phrase 'only path' because Analayo examines the definition of the term and raises some questions about how we might understand it. It was one of the things that struck me early in his book. I won't type it out but will post again when I find the time to scan and OCR the two pages or so.
I recall Bhikkhu Bodhi saying this might be more accurately translated as "one going way" as in "for one who develops this path their practice will end up at Nibbana and no where else. This seems to be the gist of Ven. Analayo's comments as well.
- Peter

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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Peter wrote:I recall Bhikkhu Bodhi saying this might be more accurately translated as "one going way" as in "for one who develops this path their practice will end up at Nibbana and no where else. This seems to be the gist of Ven. Analayo's comments as well.
Yes, this is compatible with one of the commentarial explanations (of which there are a few)...

Again, as translated by Soma Thera (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
"The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way." The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]."

Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind.

Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] — that is, it (the way) goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the one Nibbana. And that is why Brahma Sahampati said:

Whose mind perceiving life's last dying out
Vibrates with love, he knows the only way
That led in ancient times, is leading now,
And in the future will lead past the flood.6
As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is without a second."

Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained.

Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam yanti]"7 say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice.

In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana.

Regarding "the only way" there is the following account of a discussion that took place long ago.

The Elder Tipitaka Culla Naga said: "The Way of Mindfulness-arousing (as expounded in our Discourse) is the (mundane) preliminary part (of the Eightfold Way)."

His teacher the Elder Culla Summa said: "The Way is a mixed one (a way that is both mundane and supramundane)."

The pupil: "Reverend Sir, it is the preliminary part."

The teacher: "Friend, it is the mixed Way."

As the teacher was insistent, the pupil became silent. They went away without coming to a decision.

On the way to the bathing place the teacher considered the matter. He recited the Discourse. When he came to the part where it is said: "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years," he concluded that after producing the consciousness of the Supramundane Path there was no possibility of continuing in that state of mind for seven years, and that his pupil, Culla Naga, was right. On that very day, which happened to be the eighth of the lunar fortnight, it was the elder Culla Naga's turn to expound the Dhamma. When the exposition was about to begin, the Elder Culla Summa went to the Hall of Preaching and stood behind the pulpit.

After the pupil had recited the preliminary stanzas the teacher spoke to the pupil in the hearing of others, saying, "Friend, Culla Naga." The pupil heard the voice of his teacher and replied: "What is it, Reverend Sir?" The teacher said this: "To say, as I did, that the Way is a mixed one is not right. You are right in calling it the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing." Thus the Elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked as though it were a bundle of sugar-cane. They took up what was rational; they gave up what was not.

Thereupon, the pupil, realising that on a point on which experts of the Dhamma like his learned teacher had floundered, fellows of the holy life in the future were more likely to be unsure, thought: "With the authority of a citation from the Discourse-collection, I will settle this question." Therefore, he brought out and placed before his hearers the following statement from the Patisambhida Magga: "The preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing is called the only way."8 And, in order to elaborate just that and to show of which path or way the instruction in our Discourse is the preliminary part, he further quoted the following also from the Patisambhida Magga: "The Excellent Way is the Eightfold way; four are truths; dispassion is the best of things belonging to the wise; besides that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision. Walk along that Way so that you may confound Death, and put an end to suffering."9
Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by zavk »

Thanks for the above post, Retro.
With metta,
zavk
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Danny »

zavk wrote:[Please start from two posts up]

The flexible interpretation of the satipatthana contemplations in actual practice can be illustrated by taking a cross section, as it were, through the direct path of satipatthana. Such a sectional view would resemble a twelve-petalled flower (see Fig 15.2 below), with the main object of contemplation (here the breath is used as an example) constituting the centre of the “flower”.

Image

From awareness of the main object of meditation, the dynamics of contemplation can at any given moment lead to any of the other satipatthana exercises, and then revert to the main object. That is, from being aware of the process of breathing, for example, awareness might turn to any other occurrence in the realm of body, feelings, mind, or dhammas which has become prominent, and then revert to the breath. Otherwise, in the event that the newly-arisen object of meditation should require sustained attention and deeper investigation, it can become the new centre of the flower, with the former object turned into one of the petals.
Hello everybody, great topic and i have found some answers already, but, and I've asked this on an other forum, how do things like the fingernails or other bodyparts and the four elements come into play in the way descriped above? I did contemplate the fist five bodyparts listed, in my practice, and had some good results so for, but I don't see how they come to mind automaticly, I mean when focusing on the breath I never think of my head hair for instance. I have read both Soma Thera´s and ven. Analayo`s commentaries and listened to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks as well, from what I understand the bodyparts and elements are used as a single exercise to counter-ballance any sensual craving or seeing the body as beautiful or as my-self or I. So for a certain mental state or certain character type, but not all the time and every sitting.
Or should it be taken as the centre of the flower at these moments only'? But still, how do they fit in another, say breath at the centre, type of meditation?
Any help is appreciated...
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Cittasanto »

Hello everybody, great topic and i have found some answers already, but, and I've asked this on an other forum, how do things like the fingernails or other bodyparts and the four elements come into play in the way descriped above? I did contemplate the fist five bodyparts listed, in my practice, and had some good results so for, but I don't see how they come to mind automaticly, I mean when focusing on the breath I never think of my head hair for instance. I have read both Soma Thera´s and ven. Analayo`s commentaries and listened to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks as well, from what I understand the bodyparts and elements are used as a single exercise to counter-ballance any sensual craving or seeing the body as beautiful or as my-self or I. So for a certain mental state or certain character type, but not all the time and every sitting.
Or should it be taken as the centre of the flower at these moments only'? But still, how do they fit in another, say breath at the centre, type of meditation?
Any help is appreciated...[/quote]

Hi
Try reading the main Sutta about Meditation on the Body
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Danny »

Thank you, Manapa, for the quick reply and link.
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by nathan »

I think the satipatthana frames of reference are discernibly distinct avenues of lived experience. There is specifically this and that to be distinctly discerned, investigated, known and understood. This is distinct from that, etc.. Thereby one is prepared to be mindful of whatever arises and of what it is.

In concentration practice each specific part of the whole is exclusively investigated at first repeatedly, then sustainedly and developing in this way towards a single pointedly encompassing nondual absorption in the object. In insight practice the attention goes where it will in various ways and to various extents. All of the khandhas arise in rapid sequences in all parts of the body and mind in all sorts of combinations. Along with overcoming grasping at and averting from these objects there is also overcoming the ignorance of the object which is the primary obstacle to clear knowing. Pleasant, painful, neither? In fact it is as many as all or none of these, it is the object du jour - of that moment. Thus the task is to take it as it comes and to endeavor to fully know it for exactly what it is, a sensation, a mental object, wholesome, harmful, etc..

In regards to Ven. Soma's comments I bear in mind that he was addressing the western readership of his day. We have such rich resources widely available now. Not so long ago it was not this way at all. It is quite possible that much of his potential readership was ignorant of the subject of meditation entirely. Even if not always the case this is an introductory work suitable for those who are.

When one is a complete beginner and entirely on their own advice that one begin with as suitable object are probably good instructions for getting the concentration necessary to begin to do insight with some effectiveness. Early on one needs every advantage just to figure out what meditating is or can be. If one better understands, then they have the suttas of the Buddha and I am sure Ven. Soma also has this in mind in providing a translation of the sutta. I much appreciated his writing in coming to my own better understanding back in the day. He was a fine writer and admirable bhikkhu imho.

In regards to the sutta, yes I do think it is a presented as a naturally sequential course of study just as it is, step by step, most likely to always be the best course, having been spoken in this way by the Buddha Himself. When the objects are clearly knowable then there is the overcoming of all delusion and ignorance to get done. Serious lotta work for lotta serious people!

I hope that fits in to the flow for now.

metta and upekkha
Last edited by nathan on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by nathan »

Manapa wrote:Hi Ben Retro, & All
"Enlightenment is only a moment away"
the length of that moment is another thing though

I personally think the time frames given are concerning the right method mentioned in the start, the full practice done correctly, remember Ananda took longer than 7 years under the Buddhas teachings to gain enlightenment.
As I recall and understand this, Ven. Ananda was busy as the Buddha's personal attendant, very busy, most every day. When he was not allowed into the first council as he was still a stream entrant and the Buddha was now dead as soon as Ven. Kasapa insisted he must be an Arahat to attend he completed the task in less than a day. I would not underestimate Ven. Ananda's capacities.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by nathan »

Thanks for the well informed discussion everyone.

The comments on comments have brought more comments to mind. Go figure.

On the broader question of how to apply the satipatthana practices; until it's been fully perfected in every way this form of satipatthana could not by nature of the practitioner be performed perfectly in some kind of methodical sequential manner.

A capacity for exhaustive insight via satipatthana could be employed as one way of specifying what necessitates a determination of complete mastery towards a full analytical understanding of dhamma supportive of the four analytical knowledges. This may be why great asceticism was employed to that end even by Arahats.

The elimination of all ignorance obscuring the range of knowables from a fully applicable mindful attention to the known does appear to be necessary for full awakening. Does one need to achieve a comprehensive understanding of the knowable and of extant causes and results to enable the full awakening? It is necessary to master this understanding fully in some way but what of this knowing the known is the path and what is the known in the known upon full awakening? There is both the gradual practice processes of training in knowing and the ultimate resultant kinds of the ways of ultimate knowing.

The degree of insight development necessary for further progress on the path of insight at each successive point on the path is always more insight than the degree of insight necessary previously. The insight gained pertains to all of the frames of reference. How much each new development of insight needs to be applied to the whole of experience can vary a lot. One might progress from one nana to another very quickly in one specific frame of reference and then remain in others examining all of these frames of reference for a long period of time.

Until it is perfected satipatthana can be practiced methodically in this specifically sequential way or not. Why not? Once competent in all these forms of mindfulness one could do satipatthana all the time no matter what sequences are experienced. Regardless of how satipatthana mindfulness is applied in practice any improvement in overall understanding supports the development of further progress of insight throughout the moments of practice and experience. I don't think we have to consider this as a rigidly inflexible course of practice only as a whole practice. This Satipatthana Sutta is one sutta presenting a central way of developing understanding among many which present these forms and modes of purifying the process of investigation into the entire nature of lived experience.

These suttas are definitely meditation instructions. I think the complete necessary meditation instructions are comprehensively presented by the Buddha in many ways within the whole of His discourses. A Noble or a learned teacher is always desirable. The greatest of them all has passed but his words have never been so accessible to so many of us as today. It is wonderful what this has done for everyone's understanding. It is like protestants finally getting handed a bible for the first time in a millenia! I'm curious what even more sophisticated questions and comments the Buddha's discourses will attract in the next hundred years. Any knowable yet nearly imponderably deep subjects can be plumbed usefully for a long time before they dry up.

Ven. Analayo's book is great, thanks for posting the extracts Zavk. It is a book, once again, written for the audience of our day and the much larger audience of very learned and accomplished practitioners for whom again english is the first or only accessible language. It would be difficult to try to give the two works a fair comparison. Someone today can read both. Clearly Ven. Analayo's book is more helpful for those of intermediate understanding than Ven. Soma's book while an advanced understanding is less likely to rely on books nearly as much at all.

The better I understand Dhamma, the more fully content I am with the discourses straight up, they encompass so much and are so well put. However my fuller understanding develops, through further study of writings or by further self discipline the details all continue to enhance the same overall picture of the the truth. Any true commentary retains that degree of truthfulness that it truly has. Beyond this, comment is best considered in terms of it's particular intent on the part of the writer and the requirements of the given readership at that time. We might note that the suttas themselves are so rich in potent meaning and importance that they might support nearly limitless commentary dependent upon...conditions. Fortunately there are reasonable limits to useful, helpful or beneficial comment or I would be completely insufferable!
:smile:

metta and upekkha
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by phil »

Hi all

Some mention above re the Bhikkhu Bodhi MN talks on this sutta. (Rather long, about 10 hours for the whole sutta, but very helpful in my opinion.)

At the very beginning of the talks, he raves (so to speak) about a certain book on satipatthana by a fellow monk. Repeatedly says how excellent it is and that anyone who really wants to better understand satipatthana should read it. Does anyone remember the title, and can anyone who has read it tell us a bit about what it says re this thread topic? Thanks.

Metta,

Phil
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Phil,

Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization
by Analayo
http://www.windhorsepublications.com/Ca ... ductID=681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.amazon.com/Satipatthana-Dire ... 1899579540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike
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