Mettafuture - may I recommend a book - Theravadin Meditation - by Winston King. He was a scholarly lay practitioner. This book discusses in detail jhana meditation and the use of Kasinas. (Note: Ven. Sariputta really emphasized breath meditation as the 'penultimate' for jhana - BUT - this book lays out in scholarly detail - the use of colour kasinas - ie, non breath meditation objects for meditation.)
This book may be of some help to you.
I will see my teacher this saturday - if I get a chance - I will ask him about this and your situation and see if he recommends anything. I will pm you on this as I don't want to discuss in this in the open forum. Please check your pms.
Best and be well,
V.
Breath this... Breath that...
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura
- mettafuture
- Posts: 475
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Thank you, and will do!Vepacitta wrote:Mettafuture - may I recommend a book - Theravadin Meditation - by Winston King. He was a scholarly lay practitioner. This book discusses in detail jhana meditation and the use of Kasinas. (Note: Ven. Sariputta really emphasized breath meditation as the 'penultimate' for jhana - BUT - this book lays out in scholarly detail - the use of colour kasinas - ie, non breath meditation objects for meditation.)
This book may be of some help to you.
I will see my teacher this saturday - if I get a chance - I will ask him about this and your situation and see if he recommends anything. I will pm you on this as I don't want to discuss in this in the open forum. Please check your pms.
Best and be well,
V.
EDIT: While looking up your title suggestion, I found this book.
Buddhist Meditation: An Anthology of Texts from the Pali Canon by Sarah Shaw
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415485681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It doesn't have any reviews, but it looks very promising. Has anyone here heard of it?
- Goofaholix
- Posts: 4029
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Trouble is when people talk about their best meditation experiences often the criteria they are measuring by is the most calm, or the least discursive thinking, or the most pleasant feeling.mettafuture wrote: My best meditation experiences have been with metta, and with contemplating feelings as instructed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I would like to refine and/or compare my current approach with other approaches, and perhaps add some of the 5 recollections into my practice. My frustration comes when I'm not able to find any material that goes into detail on this. Everything, of course, is about the breath...
This is fine if that is what you're after but the primary purpose of Buddhist meditation is insight or wisdom, and this doesn't always "feel" like the best meditation experience.
Anyway it's good to branch out into other techniques if you've mastered the technique you are doing and need to expand your boundaries, it's not good if you are doing it out of restlessness or dissatisfaction. The technique is not important, the attitude of mind is.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
- mettafuture
- Posts: 475
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
I have respiratory problems. Asking me to do breath meditation is like asking a man with broken legs to do walking meditation. Sure, I can deal with the discomfort, but why should I have to when there are 39 other objects I could be focusing on? All I need is the instruction.Goofaholix wrote:Trouble is when people talk about their best meditation experiences often the criteria they are measuring by is the most calm, or the least discursive thinking, or the most pleasant feeling.mettafuture wrote: My best meditation experiences have been with metta, and with contemplating feelings as instructed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I would like to refine and/or compare my current approach with other approaches, and perhaps add some of the 5 recollections into my practice. My frustration comes when I'm not able to find any material that goes into detail on this. Everything, of course, is about the breath...
This is fine if that is what you're after but the primary purpose of Buddhist meditation is insight or wisdom, and this doesn't always "feel" like the best meditation experience.
Anyway it's good to branch out into other techniques if you've mastered the technique you are doing and need to expand your boundaries, it's not good if you are doing it out of restlessness or dissatisfaction. The technique is not important, the attitude of mind is.
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Hi MettaFuture,
There is considerable detail in the Visuddhimagga (hundreds of pages!) on the 40 objects, though it's not always easy to read. However the section on Metta, for example, covers most of what you'll find in most modern expositions. And there are dozens of pages on each recollection...
Mike
Yes, we understand that. But walking is not a problem, right? And there are plenty of books and websites that discuss Metta.mettafuture wrote: I have respiratory problems. Asking me to do breath meditation is like asking a man with broken legs to do walking meditation. Sure, I can deal with the discomfort, but why should I have to when there are 39 other objects I could be focusing on? All I need is the instruction.
There is considerable detail in the Visuddhimagga (hundreds of pages!) on the 40 objects, though it's not always easy to read. However the section on Metta, for example, covers most of what you'll find in most modern expositions. And there are dozens of pages on each recollection...
Mike
- mettafuture
- Posts: 475
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Thanks to you and some of the others in this thread I have enough material to get the ball rolling again. My concern isn't entirely for myself, though. Everyone would benefit if there were more materials on some of the other meditation objects. There are hundreds of books on the breath, but hardly any books can be found on the 5 recollections, the kasinas, and so on.mikenz66 wrote:Hi MettaFuture,Yes, we understand that. But walking is not a problem, right? And there are plenty of books and websites that discuss Metta.mettafuture wrote: I have respiratory problems. Asking me to do breath meditation is like asking a man with broken legs to do walking meditation. Sure, I can deal with the discomfort, but why should I have to when there are 39 other objects I could be focusing on? All I need is the instruction.
There is considerable detail in the Visuddhimagga (hundreds of pages!) on the 40 objects, though it's not always easy to read. However the section on Metta, for example, covers most of what you'll find in most modern expositions. And there are dozens of pages on each recollection...
Mike
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Here's some material on kasina meditation (and other objects...):
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.yellowrobe.com/practice/medi ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... n._Mettiko" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammaweb.net/paauk/Book/kno ... rv2003.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.yellowrobe.com/practice/medi ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... n._Mettiko" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammaweb.net/paauk/Book/kno ... rv2003.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
- Goofaholix
- Posts: 4029
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
You still have to breath no matter what object you choose, do you not? So presumably the problem is that once you place your attention on the breath it becomes unnatural, this is a problem of the mind not the breath so it's worth exploring.mettafuture wrote:Goofaholix wrote:mettafuture wrote: I have respiratory problems. Asking me to do breath meditation is like asking a man with broken legs to do walking meditation. Sure, I can deal with the discomfort, but why should I have to when there are 39 other objects I could be focusing on? All I need is the instruction.
I get a lot of nasal congestion and I found in the past the best way to not let it ruin my meditation was to give full attention to it, which of course is just the place where you need to give attention in anapanasati.
I think it's worth exploring why your respiratory problems are worse when you give attention to them, you may find by doing so you learn to let go of your resistance to it and relax around it and gain some freedom from it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
You may be right Goof - about 'over focusing' and making breath a problem. However, if he's got respiratory issues, and he's getting frigged up over it (not a criticism Metta - we all get frigged up over something) then it's pointless to point him towards breath meditation - at least - at this point.
Far better that he can establish another type of meditation practise for now. So he can y'know ... practice.
V.
Far better that he can establish another type of meditation practise for now. So he can y'know ... practice.
V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
As Ajahn Munindo says, practice as you can, not as you cant, and always be prepared to push yourself a LITTLE at a time.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
- mettafuture
- Posts: 475
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
With metta and much appreciation, thank you.mikenz66 wrote:Here's some material on kasina meditation (and other objects...):
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.yellowrobe.com/practice/medi ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... n._Mettiko" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammaweb.net/paauk/Book/kno ... rv2003.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
There are too many problems wrapped up in my breath. Most days, it's not a smooth or gentle object to follow like it is for everyone else. I'd rather just leave it alone, let it happen naturally, and focus on something else. Like I explained before, I don't believe the Buddha outlined 40 objects of contemplation for nothing. He wouldn't have given all those talks if he didn't feel they would benefit someone. He likely knew there were people like myself who would be able to make better progress with another object.Goofaholix wrote:You still have to breath no matter what object you choose, do you not? So presumably the problem is that once you place your attention on the breath it becomes unnatural, this is a problem of the mind not the breath so it's worth exploring.
They don't necessarily worsen when I bring them to my attention. Bringing them to my attention only reminds me of how bad they are. It's kind of like my neighbors when they're playing obnoxious music downstairs. When I'm quiet and listening for it, I can hear it, and it bothers me. But if I'm busy working on a project for a client, and their music isn't the center of my attention, I'm able to look past it, and get my work done. Sure, I could learn how to look through my issues, but why should I? Why should I make my practice more difficult when I could simply focus on something else?I think it's worth exploring why your respiratory problems are worse when you give attention to them, you may find by doing so you learn to let go of your resistance to it and relax around it and gain some freedom from it.
Vepacitta wrote:Far better that he can establish another type of meditation practise for now. So he can y'know ... practice.
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
I think I understand what you are saying, mettafuture. This is why I sit on a chair to meditate, though every so often I still try sitting on the floor/a cushion in one of the cross-legged positions. It comes down to I can either spend a lot of time generating and observing back pain without ever achieving deep concentration, or I can sit on a chair and do some real meditation.
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
I don't know if it's too tied up in the breath for you, but I've found that simple mindfulness of the body is a very useful exercise. Simply being aware of the sense of space which you occupy and keeping your mindfulness there as you would with the breath. I tend to practice this in tandem with anapanasati, since they go well together, but mindfulness of the body has the advantage of being easily done in basically any circumstance, not confined to sitting meditation. In any case it does train your mindfulness and focus, which is what really matters.
- Goofaholix
- Posts: 4029
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
It depends on where you are at, and right now doing something else is probably the best thing for you as long as you are clear about why you are doing it. I would have thought looking through your issues and facing up to your difficulties is what insight meditation is all about, but sometimes one needs to build strength of mind before doing that, sometime in the future you might find you naturally want to investigate this and you might find you gain a lot of insight as a result.mettafuture wrote: They don't necessarily worsen when I bring them to my attention. Bringing them to my attention only reminds me of how bad they are. It's kind of like my neighbors when they're playing obnoxious music downstairs. When I'm quiet and listening for it, I can hear it, and it bothers me. But if I'm busy working on a project for a client, and their music isn't the center of my attention, I'm able to look past it, and get my work done. Sure, I could learn how to look through my issues, but why should I? Why should I make my practice more difficult when I could simply focus on something else?
So if you find metta strengthens your mind keep doing it, I'd also recommend looking at the sensations in the body and the awareness of the mind.
If visualisation/contemplation/mantra type meditations interest you then you can experiment, these have never interested me and as you've discovered don't seem to interest modern teachers. I think they are mostly designed as a specific antidote to a specific problem of mind, not a lifetime of practice.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Hi Mettafuture,
I practice earth kasiṇa and/or air kasiṇa meditation every day and find it very useful for developing deep calm (samatha). The aim of the practice is the attunement of apperception to the totality of whichever kasiṇa one is working with, but for developing calm I've found that it's best to start with the commentarial method of using a circular disk. I use potting soil leveled flat in a large shallow bowl for an earth kasiṇa disk, and also have a few color kasiṇas cut out of colored cloth. Anyway, a few sources on kasiṇa practice to get started:
The Meaning of Kasiṇa by Dmytro Ivakhnenko.
Colour-Kasiṇa Meditation.
Meditation of Divine Dwelling in Elements and Colours.
All the best,
Geoff
I practice earth kasiṇa and/or air kasiṇa meditation every day and find it very useful for developing deep calm (samatha). The aim of the practice is the attunement of apperception to the totality of whichever kasiṇa one is working with, but for developing calm I've found that it's best to start with the commentarial method of using a circular disk. I use potting soil leveled flat in a large shallow bowl for an earth kasiṇa disk, and also have a few color kasiṇas cut out of colored cloth. Anyway, a few sources on kasiṇa practice to get started:
The Meaning of Kasiṇa by Dmytro Ivakhnenko.
Colour-Kasiṇa Meditation.
Meditation of Divine Dwelling in Elements and Colours.
All the best,
Geoff