Role of the teacher in Theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Maitri
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Maitri »

This is a good question because I have been thinking a lot about this recently ;)

I have had the good fortune of having a Bhante to speak with one-on-one with about my meditation practice. I've had experiences in mediation that have left me stumped and confused over the years. Speaking with a teacher about these have been very helpful in navigating where I have been wandering in my meditation. Especially when he provides guided Vipassana instructions I notice a profound shift in my fording through pitfalls.

I was speaking with him about this and he told me that many people have had similar issues with "plateauing" in meditation. One aspect he told me is that many in the West have so many options that it is easy to get lose in all the various instructions, guidance, and teachings out there. While everything you hear may be perfectly legit practice and taught by knowledgeable teachers, it can lead to mixing up methods and stalling in practice.One teacher says this, and another that. Working with a teacher can help in avoiding this kind of issue or guiding one through the path once it has. This made sense to me and I've been able to make some progress with just a few adjustments.

Working with Pali canon is also a great way to develop, but having a teacher to work with is extremely helpful. Having different tools to access is a nice way to balance my practice.

Thank you Bodom for Buddhadassa's quote. I think that expresses my view as well. :anjali:
"Upon a heap of rubbish in the road-side ditch blooms a lotus, fragrant and pleasing.
Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavagga

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mikenz66
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks for your observations Maitri,

As I said above, I doubt I would have got far without teachers. Certainly I would never have gotten started by just reading Suttas --- has anyone actually done this (no modern books, teachers, recordings, ...)?

I do agree, however, that relying on a particular teacher is not necessary, or even desirable. Due to various circumstances my teachers have come and gone, and my current teacher often tells us not become attached to him in particular, or feel that we have to wait around for a teacher to turn up - just get on with it!

:anjali:
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Paññāsikhara »

I generally agree with what has been said above. However, I would like to add a comment or two.

1. One of the problems with "rely on the texts" is that for 99% of people, it is "rely on an interpretation of the texts". Very few can read the Pali texts themselves, and have sufficient grounding in the language, the idioms, the culture and so forth, to really read it in context. (I'm sure we've seen plenty of examples online when somebody with a Pali dictionary pulls out a word or two here and there, and makes all sorts of crazy claims about them. Enough said.) Therefore, to rely on a "translation / interpretation", we are most of the time already relying on a teacher, ie. the translator. We should acknowledge that, at least. It's more of a problem when we don't acknowledge it, and say boldly "But the sutta says ...", and then give everyone a dose of the opinions of translator X.

2. The "sensei model". Perhaps someone is using the wrong term here. "Sensei" is a general honorific, referring to anybody of an elder generation to oneself. Perhaps the more appropriate term would be "roshi" (though this is also very broad). Roshi is closer to guru, and sensei is quite a long way from it.

3. The majority of Mahayana teachings talk more about a relationship between student and "spiritual friend" (kalyana-mitra) rather than a guru. Just that the forms popular in the West are not exactly representative of Mahayana as a whole.
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Kenshou »

...has anyone actually done this (no modern books, teachers, recordings, ...)?
Gotten started with just suttas? I'd say that I did. Thanissaro's translations on you-know-where were the first real Buddhist literature I had ever read, besides some insubstantial and vague summaries on the different schools of Buddhism and what they're all about. But it's when I started reading suttas that things really began to make sense, so I'd say that's how I initially stuck my foot through the door. I don't restrict myself entirely to that body of literature, but it put gas in the tank well enough, so to say.

Whatever works!
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mikenz66
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Kenshou for that account. Obviously there are different ways in. I didn't know a sutta from a subway, or what the difference between Theravada and other schools was until I'd been attending my Wat for about a year (the food, friendship, and chanting were good...) and having instruction for about six months. For me a key thing was meeting real people (monks and lay people) who were making an effort to follow the Dhamma.

I've now read a considerable amount of suttas and old and new commentarial material. However, I'm not always convinced that much of that study was necessary (though it's fun and interesting...). I might have made faster progress spending more time just putting my teachers' instructions into practise...

:anjali:
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Kenshou wrote:
...has anyone actually done this (no modern books, teachers, recordings, ...)?
Gotten started with just suttas? I'd say that I did. Thanissaro's translations on you-know-where were the first real Buddhist literature I had ever read, besides some insubstantial and vague summaries on the different schools of Buddhism and what they're all about. But it's when I started reading suttas that things really began to make sense, so I'd say that's how I initially stuck my foot through the door. I don't restrict myself entirely to that body of literature, but it put gas in the tank well enough, so to say.

Whatever works!
Then Thanissaro is in effect one of your teachers. Not only did he translate the texts on that site, but also the very fact that he chooses to put some texts there, but not others, is also an important thing to keep in mind. In other words, even just straight out reading on AtI is coming through a kind of filter of sorts.

I don't mean, by this, to imply that this is a bad filter, or that one shouldn't do this. I just wish to point out that it is not some kind of "personal un-mediated interaction with the suttas" at all. We should at least acknowledge this part of the process.
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Kenshou
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Kenshou »

Oh, I certainly don't deny any of that at all. I take an interest in language and the problems of translation aren't entirely new to me, but it is still of course a relevant issue for you to bring up. These days I try to read a couple different translations of a text if I can, and get a working knowledge of the underlying pali here and there on particularly ambiguous, controversial or important issues, which has helped a lot.

Thanissaro helped me get the gist and take an interest in it, is all.
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Sanghamitta »

5heaps wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:Again, my question has to do with the necessity of a teacher. I think most of us would agree that having a teacher is a good thing. But it seems to me that in certain Mahayana traditions, personal contact with the teacher is an absolute prerequisite, almost to the point that it becomes more about the teacher than the teachings.
the vajrayana idea of a teacher is based on their understanding of ultimate truth. cant separate the 2 and unfortunately their idea of the ultimate is difficult

for standard mahayana its the same as theravada, good teachers are the difference between making big progress or not
Mahayana and Theravada need not be antagonistic, but they are not the same.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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5heaps
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by 5heaps »

Sanghamitta wrote:but they are not the same.
i didnt say theyre the same i said the role of teachers is the same. if you say its not, why do you say that
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Lazy_eye »

Paññāsikhara wrote:I generally agree with what has been said above. However, I would like to add a comment or two.

1. One of the problems with "rely on the texts" is that for 99% of people, it is "rely on an interpretation of the texts". Very few can read the Pali texts themselves, and have sufficient grounding in the language, the idioms, the culture and so forth, to really read it in context. (I'm sure we've seen plenty of examples online when somebody with a Pali dictionary pulls out a word or two here and there, and makes all sorts of crazy claims about them. Enough said.) Therefore, to rely on a "translation / interpretation", we are most of the time already relying on a teacher, ie. the translator. We should acknowledge that, at least. It's more of a problem when we don't acknowledge it, and say boldly "But the sutta says ...", and then give everyone a dose of the opinions of translator X.

2. The "sensei model". Perhaps someone is using the wrong term here. "Sensei" is a general honorific, referring to anybody of an elder generation to oneself. Perhaps the more appropriate term would be "roshi" (though this is also very broad). Roshi is closer to guru, and sensei is quite a long way from it.

3. The majority of Mahayana teachings talk more about a relationship between student and "spiritual friend" (kalyana-mitra) rather than a guru. Just that the forms popular in the West are not exactly representative of Mahayana as a whole.
Thank you for these observations, Venerable. "Sensei" was, I'm afraid, a bit of linguistic laziness. Roshi is probably the intended term. What I had in mind, and what I assumed the previous poster had in mind, were characters who adopted an air of infallibility and impunity, exploited their students without shame, and invoked Zen rhetoric about tossing out sutras, etc, as a means of shielding themselves doctrinally from any sort of accountability. The Richard Baker ("I need that luxury car so I can meditate while driving!") scandal comes to mind.

Probably this behavior arose from a wilful misreading/decontextualization of Japanese Zen practices (I'm not familiar enough with Zen to know), but it's easy enough to imagine how authoritarian tendencies within the tradition paved the way for such abuse.

Not that there aren't institutional problems within Theravada as well. But my perception is that influential teachers such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, or lay counterparts such as Goldstein and the IMS folks, follow the "spiritual friend" model in their demeanor, tone, approachability, etc.

I should probably have clarified in the OP that by Mahayana I also meant Vajrayana.

:anjali:

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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by DNS »

Well said, Lazy Eye.

That is what I meant in my posts too, that in Theravada there does not appear to be an absolute necessity for a teacher, beneficial yes, certainly in most cases. Also that I do not advocate texts alone, but teachers should be more of a spiritual friend and guide, and not an authoritarian or seen as infallible.
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by Annapurna »

I've never seen any teacher as infallible... ml parents told me not to be overly impressed, and ...I mean you notice they are human...
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samadhi_steve
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by samadhi_steve »

The main point would be not to rely on a teacher to walk the path for us. However guidance, whether it be in sutta or text can be highly beneficial.

In essence the Buddha is our initial teacher who points us in the direction of the Dhamma as our ultimate and final teacher.

The path must be walked by oneself but there are tools that can help one along the way.
Buddho is something cool and calm. It's the path for giving rise to peace and contentment — the only path that will release us from the suffering and stress in this world.
rowyourboat
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by rowyourboat »

Snp 2.8 PTS: Sn 316-323
Nava Sutta: A Boat
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2001–2009
Alternate translation: Ireland
Translator's note: Although it is often lost in translation, this poem in the Pali has a clearly articulated over-all structure. The first seven verses — coming under the "because" (yasma) — state reasons, while the last verse, under the "so" (tasma), draws the conclusion: find a good teacher and practice the Dhamma.


Because:
when you honor
— as the devas, Indra —
one from whom
you might learn the Dhamma,
he, learned, honored,
confident in you,
shows you the Dhamma.

You, enlightened, heedful,
befriending a teacher like that,
practicing the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma,
pondering,
giving it priority,
become
knowledgeable,
clear-minded,
wise.

But if you consort with a piddling fool
who's envious,
hasn't come to the goal,
you'll go to death
without having cleared up the Dhamma right here,
with your doubts unresolved.

Like a man gone down to a river —
turbulent, flooding, swift-flowing —
and swept away in the current:
how can he help others across?

Even so:
he who hasn't
cleared up the Dhamma,
attended to the meaning
of what the learned say,
crossed over his doubts:
how can he get others
to comprehend?

But as one who's embarked
on a sturdy boat,
with rudder & oars,
would — mindful, skillful,
knowing the needed techniques —
carry many others across,

even so
an attainer-of-knowledge, learned,
self-developed, unwavering
can get other people to comprehend —
if they're willing to listen,
ready to learn.

So:
you should befriend
a person of integrity —
learned, intelligent.
Practicing so
as to know the goal,
when you've experienced the Dhamma,

you get bliss.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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bodom
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Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Post by bodom »

'With regard to external factors, I don't envision any other single factor like admirable friendship as doing so much for a monk in training, who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage. A monk who is a friend with admirable people abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful.' - Itivuttaka 1.17
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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