awakening myth?

[tiltbillings]

Is awakening (in the Buddhist sense) a myth?

Sure. It is a story we tell ourselves, but that does not mean it is not true. It is not something that can be proven in objective, scientific terms, but it something we can see played out in our lives and in the lives of others. In a real sense it is rather meaningless and counter-productive to state "I am this and I have achieved that." The Buddha's teachings are not about adding on or credentials of attainment. It is about letting go based upon insight, working with the precepts and cultivating generosity and compassion; it is about how we live our lives. As we do the practice, we find ourselves a little less stingy, and a little less reactive, a bit more generous, a bit more even keeled, able to put some space around our thoughts and feelings so as to not get lost in them. And this does not have to be forced, but it does at times require a great deal of work and seemingly starting over again and again.

Full awakening? I think it is possible. I have met people, seen them over time in action and in unguarded moments, and over time there is transformation, there is something there (and somethings not there) that is remarkable and is the result of the practice.

[Goedert]

Is awakening (in the Buddhist sense) a myth?
It is assumed that many great teachers were awakened. But were/are they really? One is generally discouraged from making enlightenment the focus or goal of one's practice. But occasionally we find ourselves questioning why we are even practicing.There may be some benefit, but if there is no enlightenment then why practice? Why even consider the teachings? Or to phrase it another way, does the path leading to the cessatation of dukkha actually lead to the cessatation of dukkha?

Hi daniel.

I have to say something for you.

There is a great differance in the interpretation of awakening in the sects of Buddhism. In the Theravadin contest, no, awakening is not myth but a reality that can be achieved by any human being and deva.

We should avoid "mix" the sects, they appear very similiar supeficially but in deepness they are way ahead different.

As tiltbilings said in another thread, enlightenment is to "lighten up".

[ground]

There may be some benefit, but if there is no enlightenment then why practice? Why even consider the teachings?

Is what is called "life" and are the ordinary experiences therein satisfactory? If you can answer wholeheartedly in the affirmative then there is no reason for practice.

It is assumed that many great teachers were awakened. But were/are they really?

If you feel that what is called "life" and the ordinary experiences therein are actually dissatisfactory and there are person who teach you a remedy (valid through your own experience) then I would conclude that they are knowing what I did not know so far. No need to call that "awakened" but if this label is helpful why not apply it?

Is awakening (in the Buddhist sense) a myth? ...
Or to phrase it another way, does the path leading to the cessatation of dukkha actually lead to the cessatation of dukkha?

You think that can be proved or disproved by means of discussion/postings?
You can find evidence through reason for the possibility of cessation of dukkha if you investigate into your ordinary experiences. The term "awakening" might be misleading since it is too indefinite.

Kind regards

[christopher:::]

The goal in Buddhism would be Nibbana, which is a freedom from the lust (greed, or passion), ill will (hatred, or aggression), and ignorance (delusion, or misguided awareness, such as doubt, or even a mistaken confidence), all of these which would bind you to the dukkha (according to the Buddha).

If you want to achieve this freedom from the dukkha, then obviously having a doubt about it would be counterproductive (so, that's why it's called an hindrance... if you don't believe that you can free yourself from the dukkha, then you'll never unbind yourself from it). Being non-discriminative with the dhammas also would still be counter-productive (so, that's why the "dhamma vicaya" is one of the factors for the awakening). It's really that simple.

Just for information:

The Five Hindrances:

1- Worldly desires.
2- Anger, ill-will, or aggression.
3- Sloth, torpor, boredom, or lack of energy.
4- Restlessness, worry, or the inability to settle the mind.
5- Doubt, no conviction with the training, or a lack of trust.

Seven Factors of Awakening:

1- Mindfulness, a remembrance of what your goal is (as it relates to the Dhamma).
2- Discrimination of dhammas, or the investigation of your states (as they relate to the Dhamma).
3- Energy, or motivation.
4- Joy, or a pleasure with your practice.
5- Tranquility, get your own mind and body settled, not chaotic.
6- Concentration, don't be distracted.
7- Equanimity, or being unbiased with whatever is experienced.

Nice summary, beeblebrox!

If you can get rid of the five hindrances, and then manage to bring up these seven factors, then seems like the awakening should be guaranteed, shouldn't it? It's really that simple. I think many people make it way more complicated (or even mystical) than it really has to be.

Awakening may be conceptualized in rather mythic and mystical ways at times by Theravadans, such as Buddha Nature is viewed in Mahayana. This may be due to how the suttas sometimes present these ideas.. Perhaps what we call Awakening is simply a cessation of hindrances and the cultivation of Awakening factors.

The only way to know either way is to have a bit of trust and make the effort..! Seems like the worse case scenario would be less suffering, more tranquility, mindfulness, equanimity, wisdom and joy...

[Bankei]

Was the Buddha a Buddha?

[daniel p]

So logically,
if it is a myth I could practice dilligently my whole life and never know it is.
or if it is not a myth then I could practice dilligently my whole life and maybe know it is, if I progress to the end.

If I was to meet a buddha I may not recognise them as such.


I love this.
Now I can practice with confidence

[daniel p]

Was the Buddha a Buddha?

yeah man, like totally!

[daniel p]

Is awakening (in the Buddhist sense) a myth?
It is assumed that many great teachers were awakened. But were/are they really? One is generally discouraged from making enlightenment the focus or goal of one's practice. But occasionally we find ourselves questioning why we are even practicing.There may be some benefit, but if there is no enlightenment then why practice? Why even consider the teachings? Or to phrase it another way, does the path leading to the cessatation of dukkha actually lead to the cessatation of dukkha?

Hi daniel.

I have to say something for you.

There is a great differance in the interpretation of awakening in the sects of Buddhism. In the Theravadin contest, no, awakening is not myth but a reality that can be achieved by any human being and deva.

We should avoid "mix" the sects, they appear very similiar supeficially but in deepness they are way ahead different.

As tiltbilings said in another thread, enlightenment is to "lighten up".

Surely truth is truth no matter which sect.

[mikenz66]

Surely truth is truth no matter which sect.

One would hope so. But I think that one of the problems that Goedert is pointing to is that different schools use different terminology, and mixing them can lead to a lot of confusion.

Mike

[daniel p]

perhaps I should emphasise cessatation

What do you mean by cessation?

The cessation of doubt would be a good place to start.

Yes, I do recognise doubt as one of the five hinderances. This is an area I am still trying to understand fully. It does seem open to interpretation. I think one should not be too cynical in ones doubts, dismissing all things that are not completely prooven. But one should also be careful not to fall into blind dogma. Otherwise I would adopt any religion or creed I came across.

Disagree? then I have a lovely bridge to sell you, at an unbeatable price.

[daniel p]

Surely truth is truth no matter which sect.

One would hope so. But I think that one of the problems that Goedert is pointing to is that different schools use different terminology, and mixing them can lead to a lot of confusion.

Mike

Yes. I agree

kia ora.

[christopher:::]

The cessation of doubt would be a good place to start.

Yes, I do recognise doubt as one of the five hinderances. This is an area I am still trying to understand fully. It does seem open to interpretation. I think one should not be too cynical in ones doubts, dismissing all things that are not completely prooven. But one should also be careful not to fall into blind dogma. Otherwise I would adopt any religion or creed I came across.

Having some doubts about things we cannot know or experience presently or that sound a bit too metaphysical is not a problem, imo. Where doubt becomes a hindrance is if you doubt the path, the process that leads to greater happiness, less suffering.

the beauty of the dharma though, just check it out and see for yourself.

In my case i learned meditation almost 30 years ago. The results were pretty unmistakable in just the first few days. That's the best way to vanquish doubt, imo.

[Reductor]

I love this.
Now I can practice with confidence

Sure you can! Of course! why not? Come on, just do it! Keep a stiff upper lip! Take it in stride! What have you got to lose?

If you practice then you at least gain a hobby, but very likely an increase of peace of mind too (ask anyone here). Whether or not the practice goes all the way to the end of suffering, to enlightenment, is only demonstrable to yourself by accomplishing it.

In the beginning you have to be content with small returns on practice. As the benefits become steadier and more pronounced you might then have more confidence in the big promise. If you just force yourself to accept a notion or promise that is totally alien to you, you'll just have more resistance. And then you're even further from accomplishing anything of value.

[Paññāsikhara]

Kia ora, Daniel. Are you from Aotearoa?

When we begin the path, we ourselves are quite unqualified and unable to identify who or what is awakened.
We may, however, be able to identify some people who have virtuous qualities that are worthy of emulation.
Begin there. Emulate those people, learn from them, and follow their advice.
As our own virtuous qualities develop, we will be qualified to identify more subtle levels of virtuous states, in others.
Then find people who are even more highly developed, and emulate them, learn from them.
As we progress, we will gradually be able to assess the many virtuous qualities in a range of persons, including ourselves.

So, rather than simply falling into doubt about whether or not awakening is possible while we ourselves are simply unable to identify such qualities that awakening may entail, begin from where we are. One cannot walk the whole path in a single step, but one can certainly take one step at a time.

[Cittasanto]

Kia ora, Daniel. Are you from Aotearoa?

When we begin the path, we ourselves are quite unqualified and unable to identify who or what is awakened.
We may, however, be able to identify some people who have virtuous qualities that are worthy of emulation.
Begin there. Emulate those people, learn from them, and follow their advice.
As our own virtuous qualities develop, we will be qualified to identify more subtle levels of virtuous states, in others.
Then find people who are even more highly developed, and emulate them, learn from them.
As we progress, we will gradually be able to assess the many virtuous qualities in a range of persons, including ourselves.

So, rather than simply falling into doubt about whether or not awakening is possible while we ourselves are simply unable to identify such qualities that awakening may entail, begin from where we are. One cannot walk the whole path in a single step, but one can certainly take one step at a time.