MettaA well-read layman was conversing with Luang Pu, saying, "I firmly believe that in our present day and age there are not just a few monks who have practiced to the point of reaching the paths, fruitions, and nibbana. So why don't they make their knowledge public, so that those who are interested in the practice will know of the levels of Dhamma they have attained, as a way of giving them encouragement and hope so that they'll accelerate their efforts to the utmost of their ability?"
Luang Pu answered,
"Those who have awakened don't talk of what they've awakened to, because it lies above and beyond all words."
awakening myth?
Re: awakening myth?
A simple truth - from Ajaan Dune quoted from "Gifts He Left Behind":
Re: awakening myth?
Ajaan Dune.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
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Re: awakening myth?
I have heard that both Ajahn Dtun, & Ajahn Anan both say something along the lines of - it takes one to know one!
I think there is a big difference between talking about the path, and talking about attainments of that path, it would be like a 3d being trying to explain to a 2d being what being a 3d being is like. if that makes sense with all that being
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: awakening myth?
Sceptical scrutiny is important in every aspect of our lives. It's what stops us from believing in bunk. It might be one of the so called hindrances to question whether awakening is real or not, but I think its important to ask such questions.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: awakening myth?
That's what dhamma vicaya is for... discrimination of states, one of the factors for awakening. Doubt by itself is an hindrance. Here is its definition (from here):Laurens wrote:Sceptical scrutiny is important in every aspect of our lives. It's what stops us from believing in bunk. It might be one of the so called hindrances to question whether awakening is real or not, but I think its important to ask such questions.
Dhamma-vicaya is the aspect of mindfulness that categorizes our experience in terms of some model or another. An important aspect of meditation is learning ways to categorize our distractions (the hindrances) as well as positive qualities that we can develop in meditation (the dhyana factors). Dhamma-vicaya is the act of comparing our inner experience to a mental map, so that we can navigate more effectively towards our goal.
Re: awakening myth?
Sure you can! Of course! why not? Come on, just do it! Keep a stiff upper lip! Take it in stride! What have you got to lose?
If you practice then you at least gain a hobby, but very likely an increase of peace of mind too (ask anyone here). Whether or not the practice goes all the way to the end of suffering, to enlightenment, is only demonstrable to yourself by accomplishing it.
In the beginning you have to be content with small returns on practice. As the benefits become steadier and more pronounced you might then have more confidence in the big promise. If you just force yourself to accept a notion or promise that is totally alien to you, you'll just have more resistance. And then you're even further from accomplishing anything of value.[/quote]
Thanks for the encouragement!
I should point out that I am not experiencing some sort of crisis of faith. I have been practicing regularly for the past couple of years, and I can honestly say I do believe I have accrued at least some benefits. In fact my wife felt that my temperament had improved markedly and decided to attend the same meditation retreat on that basis, with no encouragement from me.
For many years I have studied buddhist teachings (among others), but now I am patient enough to actually try to anylyse my own understanding of the dhamma and this discussion is an attempt to address the intellectual holes that appear. (wait till I start another thread on the whole anatta/rebirth thing)
This may be a painstaking process but some aspects of dhamma are more evident to me than others. I am happy to rely on those teachings which are consistent with my own experience. But I feel it is my duty to proceed with caution regarding other aspects that fall outside my experience.
If you practice then you at least gain a hobby, but very likely an increase of peace of mind too (ask anyone here). Whether or not the practice goes all the way to the end of suffering, to enlightenment, is only demonstrable to yourself by accomplishing it.
In the beginning you have to be content with small returns on practice. As the benefits become steadier and more pronounced you might then have more confidence in the big promise. If you just force yourself to accept a notion or promise that is totally alien to you, you'll just have more resistance. And then you're even further from accomplishing anything of value.[/quote]
Thanks for the encouragement!
I should point out that I am not experiencing some sort of crisis of faith. I have been practicing regularly for the past couple of years, and I can honestly say I do believe I have accrued at least some benefits. In fact my wife felt that my temperament had improved markedly and decided to attend the same meditation retreat on that basis, with no encouragement from me.
For many years I have studied buddhist teachings (among others), but now I am patient enough to actually try to anylyse my own understanding of the dhamma and this discussion is an attempt to address the intellectual holes that appear. (wait till I start another thread on the whole anatta/rebirth thing)
This may be a painstaking process but some aspects of dhamma are more evident to me than others. I am happy to rely on those teachings which are consistent with my own experience. But I feel it is my duty to proceed with caution regarding other aspects that fall outside my experience.
Re: awakening myth?
yes.Auckland.Paññāsikhara wrote:Kia ora, Daniel. Are you from Aotearoa?
No one here from Christchurch?
Re: awakening myth?
Yes, see: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5536" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;daniel p wrote: No one here from Christchurch?
Mike
Re: awakening myth?
Well that's a relief. I thought I would have to break out my rhetoric 'skills' (*shudder*). And I don't think anyone wants that!daniel p wrote: Thanks for the encouragement!
I should point out that I am not experiencing some sort of crisis of faith.
Nooooooooo......!!!!... (wait till I start another thread on the whole anatta/rebirth thing)
:ban:
I'm of the opinion that the teachings are first and foremost about our 'experience' of suffering, of being. However, when people say 'my experience' they are usually referring to their views. Don't unwittingly filter the teachings through your pre-existing views.This may be a painstaking process but some aspects of dhamma are more evident to me than others. I am happy to rely on those teachings which are consistent with my own experience. But I feel it is my duty to proceed with caution regarding other aspects that fall outside my experience.
Of course you already have views to which you automatically appeal, but keep in mind that they are narrow by nature. Don't take it for granted that what you think is right and proper is actually right and proper.
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Re: awakening myth?
There are indeed certain teachings which are impossible to proove, others far beyond our experience (for most of us). The beauty of the dharma, imo, is how simple many of Buddha's instructions were. The deeper we go the clearer the "truth" is about certain things, but the bottom line (for many of us) are the RESULTS we experience over time- greater calm, insight, joy, patience, etc.daniel p wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement!
I should point out that I am not experiencing some sort of crisis of faith. I have been practicing regularly for the past couple of years, and I can honestly say I do believe I have accrued at least some benefits. In fact my wife felt that my temperament had improved markedly and decided to attend the same meditation retreat on that basis, with no encouragement from me.
For many years I have studied buddhist teachings (among others), but now I am patient enough to actually try to anylyse my own understanding of the dhamma and this discussion is an attempt to address the intellectual holes that appear. (wait till I start another thread on the whole anatta/rebirth thing)
This may be a painstaking process but some aspects of dhamma are more evident to me than others. I am happy to rely on those teachings which are consistent with my own experience. But I feel it is my duty to proceed with caution regarding other aspects that fall outside my experience.
Sounds like you've already seen this for yourself, thankfully. If not, its doubtful all our yapping would convince you otherwise...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: awakening myth?
Well it looks like your arguments are on shaky ground!mikenz66 wrote:Yes, see: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5536" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;daniel p wrote: No one here from Christchurch?
Mike
(I'm sorry, I've been dying to use this joke)
Hope you are well.
Re: awakening myth?
Hi daniel,
kind regards
Ben
Keep in mind that our own experience, or more correctly one's perception of one's experience, on its own is not the most reliable of arbiters. We should examine our own experience with the same objective and critical analysis that we might also extend to the teachings.daniel p wrote:I am happy to rely on those teachings which are consistent with my own experience. But I feel it is my duty to proceed with caution regarding other aspects that fall outside my experience.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: awakening myth?
daniel p wrote: Well it looks like your arguments are on shaky ground!
(I'm sorry, I've been dying to use this joke)
Watch it, I'll start on the Auckland jokes...
Things are OK for me here. No house damage, some water damage at work, but it could have been a lot worse...
Mike
Re: awakening myth?
So the consensus would seem to be that, because it is near impossible to draw a conclusion in the absolute sense, one should make a projection based on ones experience, bearing in mind the limitations of ones own perception. And that is all one can do.
Does this seem like a reasonable summation?
I always feel more at home with vaugeness and uncertainty anyway.
Really, I view strongly held opinions with deep suspicion!
Does this seem like a reasonable summation?
I always feel more at home with vaugeness and uncertainty anyway.
Really, I view strongly held opinions with deep suspicion!
Re: awakening myth?
Personally I prefer unshakable certainty because this causes effort and joyous perseverance.daniel p wrote:I always feel more at home with vaugeness and uncertainty anyway.
Kind regards