The Danger of Rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Although true, I don't think there would have been many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of men and women traveling to Tibet, India, and the Himalayas to seek inner peace, by leave all of their possessions, families, friends, careers, just for happiness in the here-and-now with no regard for any future life.
If there doing it for a better future life, this isnt really the essence of the buddhas teachings. The buddhas teachings is to end all dukkha, end all becoming of self and i-making so one is free, not for some future happy life

One is a buddhist to work for the happiness in the here and now, for unconditioned nibbana in the here and now not for future lives

Any life that arises in the future will still have dukkha
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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DNS
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by DNS »

clw_uk wrote: If there doing it for a better future life, this isnt really the essence of the buddhas teachings. The buddhas teachings is to end all dukkha, end all becoming of self and i-making so one is free, not for some future happy life
Not necessarily for a good rebirth, but they might be going for Nibbana (yes, here and now and in the hereafter), for the benefit of others, for teaching the good Dhamma.

Those who go off to the Himalayas, etc., are not enlightened yet or they wouldn't make the trip; not that one needs to do that, but first you go to the stream, then the other shore, not starting with the other shore and going backwards.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

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Not necessarily for a good rebirth, but they might be going for Nibbana (yes, here and now and in the hereafter), for the benefit of others, for teaching the good Dhamma.
I take it this is refering to a bodhisattva. Im going to answer from my own understanding of the suttas

The buddha wanted us to realise nibbana in the here and now not put it off for some future life, he instructed us to be urgent in our practice


Nibbana is the quenching of greed, hatred and delusion which can be done right now, why put it off for some future life that would be immersed in conditonality and dukkha?

If they were going for nibbana here and now then why would they be concerned about future lives?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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mikenz66
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote:
Although true, I don't think there would have been many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of men and women traveling to Tibet, India, and the Himalayas to seek inner peace, by leave all of their possessions, families, friends, careers, just for happiness in the here-and-now with no regard for any future life.
If there doing it for a better future life, this isnt really the essence of the buddhas teachings. ...
It's not that they are doing it for "a better future life". They are doing it so that they can bring the entire round of rebirth to a halt. Which may take more than one lifetime...

Metta
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Prasadachitta
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Prasadachitta »

clw_uk wrote: Well lets for say example perception, lets say you really like red cars and i really hate them (both because of ignorance of course)

There is only the red car but our ignorant perception is different because of different kinds of craving, of wanting and adverting so the experience is different

Lets take another example of death

You really enjoy life and im really depressed (again because of ignorance on both parts)

Your perception of death is fear, mine might be delight

Again there is only death, but our different cravings change experience, your crave existence, i crave annihilation (no realtion to this thread lol)
Where did my love of red cars come from? Why do I really enjoy life? Do you think the tendencies of beings are purely a function of the experience which happens from conception to this moment?


What does it act on? well all different things, consciousness, mental formations etc but all experience is experienced by the aggregates themselves, not by a self and so not-self

What about experience is experienced by aggregates? In what way do the aggregates experience? How are you defining "self"? If there is an experience of perception which is totally unique to the aggregates which result in my loving red cars, In what way is that experience not mine? Also you said before "we have different conditions acting on us at different times and so experience is always varied for each psycho-physical organism." So I hear you saying that at different times different conditions act on "us". Well I may begin to dislike red cars but there will still be residual influence from craving red cars which will effect the experience of red cars. There appears this succession of apparent events none of which are completely without influence.

Birth has the quality of coming forth, death has the quality of ending

Birth depends on death and death depends on birth, they are interconnected and differ in their dependencies thus giving them different characteristics

How is coming forth different from ending?
What is it that birth comes forth to and death is the end of?
If they are interconnected as you say, at what point do they connect?
If there is a point at which death becomes birth is there a transition from death to birth or does death instantaneously become birth?
If death didnt lead to birth then there would have been nibbana years ago
How many years ago? How are you defining nibbana here?


metta

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"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

clw_uk wrote: The aggregates expire, as in they break down and cease to function and so exsist
So something that now exists will be annihilated?
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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tiltbillings
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"The Danger of Rebirth" thread has jumped the shark

Post by tiltbillings »

“Jumped the shark” is an expression when a TV series has lost its way, going off into the realm of the silly and should be cancelled.

This thread, which has become remarkably repetitive, jumped the shark when it was suggested that the notion of the gandhabba in MN I 256-6 refers to sperm as a way of deflecting the significance of its usage. A gandhabba in the Buddhist and Brahmanical mythic structure refers to a low level celestial spirit. That the Buddha chose to use this word in the context of MN I 256-6 suggests that likely gandhabba had something of a wider meaning not found in any extant literature. In the very least, taking only what we have, in a sutta that deals at length with paticcasamuppada, the use of gandhabba suggests a way of talking about the causal conditions, beyond the merely physical, necessary for rebirth.

The gandhabba is sperm? Oh, gawd, it is time to move on. Considerable effort has been expended here to carefully, logically, and repeatedly explain the traditional Theravadin point of view, which has been repeatedly brushed aside for a highly idiosyncratic belief that, among other things, holds that rebirth must always entail a unchanging self agent notion, for which no amount of evidence otherwise makes a difference.

On E-Sangha I stayed far, far away from anti-rebirth threads for just this reason. Some lessons one learns the hard way.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by robertk »

clw_uk wrote:Robert
Why would you get struck down, what you say is absolutely correct. Anatta implies rebirth as anatta is about conditionality.
Anyone who thinks there is no rebirth is by an anihilationist who rejects anatta

An anihilationist is someone who holds there is a self to be anihilated, dont assume that because someone says there is no rebirth one is an anihilationist
Of course he is, you can claim not to belive in self till the cows come home but the fact is you think that somehow life springs forth from a material process - which is self view to the nth degree.
Buddhists with strongly held self view are either eternalists like Thannisaro or anihiliationists like yourself. It is of course normal that people hold worng views but not good when you try to equate these views to what the Buddha taught.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by cooran »

Hello Rob,

At the monastery I attend on Sundays, Bhante Dhammasiha advised me to read some of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's articles on Not-Self .... would you be so kind enough as to point out how Ven. Thanissaro is an eternalis?

metta and respect
Chris
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by tiltbillings »

Chris wrote:Hello Rob,

At the monastery I attend on Sundays, Bhante Dhammasiha advised me to read some of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's articles on Not-Self .... would you be so kind enough as to point out how Ven. Thanissaro is an eternalis?

metta and respect
Chris
If you want to discuss the supposed eternalism of Ven Thanissaro, please start a new thread. Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
clw_uk wrote: The aggregates expire, as in they break down and cease to function and so exsist
So something that now exists will be annihilated?
:thumbsup:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Once again this is going to be a quick response to the ones that need shorter answers
clw_uk wrote:
The aggregates expire, as in they break down and cease to function and so exsist


So something that now exists will be annihilated?
The aggregates arent an illusion, the view of self in relation to them in an illusion (as is any self view)

If any rupa in the future arises its new, when the rupa here ceases it wont rise again, so it ceases to exsist

When eye consciousness falls, it ceases to exsist, until another form comes into contact with the eye and a new eye consciousness is "born"

When the conditions supporting something fall, that object or aspect thats being supported also falls and ceases


Annihilation is holding the aggregates as self and stating that when they expire, "I" also expire. In reality there is no "I" to expire only the aggregates

When an arahant sees the break-up of the aggregates he sees them as ending and so ceasing to exists, does this make the arahant an annihilationist?

Maybe your picking up on the word exisist as me refering to a self, which i am not im using it for the aggregates only.



Of course he is, you can claim not to belive in self till the cows come home but the fact is you think that somehow life springs forth from a material process - which is self view to the nth degree.
Buddhists with strongly held self view are either eternalists like Thannisaro or anihiliationists like yourself. It is of course normal that people hold worng views but not good when you try to equate these views to what the Buddha taught.
When have i stated that without question life springs forth from a completely material process? The points i have put forward are valid points to be discussed, simply holding rebirth straight away without question is not in line with the buddhas spirit of inquiry

I have stated that i dont hold the aggregates to be self, and that any view or sense of self is an illusion. Of course i havent got rid of self view completely otherwise i would be a stream-winner, this will only be done by complete insight, all i have at the moment is right view in reguards to the aggregats just without true, deep insight

Just to state again, an annihilationist is some one who sees self with the aggregates in some way and sees the ending of aggregates as death of self
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by kc2dpt »

I don't see what the objection is to paticcasamuppada covering three lives. Whether it covers three lives or one the process of ending suffering is still the same: eradicate ignorance so that feeling doesn't give rise to craving. Nothing about the three lives model or the one life model changes this.

That some people who believe in rebirth have eternalist leanings doesn't really matter. All unawakened people have either eternalist views or nihilist views. The fact is the Buddha taught rebirth AND the end of rebirth. Ultimately, nihilist views are wrong because there IS rebirth for the unawakened and eternalist views are wrong because there IS the end of rebirth for the awakened.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

clw_uk wrote: When eye consciousness falls, it ceases to exsist, until another form comes into contact with the eye and a new eye consciousness is "born"
Yes, and this has not been going on since beginningless time because ...?
clw_uk wrote: When an arahant sees the break-up of the aggregates he sees them as ending and so ceasing to exists, does this make the arahant an annihilationist?
When an arahant sees the coagulation and dissolution of the aggregates he sees them as unendingly being born and unendingly dying, does this make the arahant an eternalist?
clw_uk wrote: Maybe your picking up on the word exisist as me refering to a self, which i am not im using it for the aggregates only.
Something exists. Which then permanently ceases to exist. But you're not an annihilationist.

I'm with Tilt these endless rebirth threads should permanently "expire". :quote:
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by DNS »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote: I'm with Tilt these endless rebirth threads should permanently "expire". :quote:
:jumping:

That's why I normally do not respond to these rebirth threads . . . they just go on and on and on . . . sort of like samsara. :popcorn:
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