directly related word to Dukkha in English

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directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:16 am

Hi All,
I have been searching for Dolour (us - Dolor) and it relation to the pali word Dukkha, after being told it was directly related to it.

Although I can not find any reference to the relation, etymologically, the meaning does seam to give it a far closer translation to eachother!

http://www.wordswarm.net/dictionary/dolorous.html wrote:Dolorous Definitions
Webster's 1828 Dictionary

DOLOROUS, a. [L., grief.]
1. Sorrowful; doleful; dismal; impressing sorrow or grief; as a dolorous object; a dolorous region.
2. Painful; giving pain.
Their dispatch is quick, and less dolorous than the paw of the bear.
3. Expressing pain or grief; as dolorous sighs.

WordNet (r) 3.0 (2005)

adj
1: showing sorrow [syn: dolorous, dolourous, lachrymose, tearful, weeping]

Merriam Webster's

adjective Date: 15th century causing, marked by, or expressing misery or grief � dolorously adverb � dolorousness noun

English Explanatory Dictionary

n. (US dolor) literary sorrow, distress. [ME f. OF f. L dolor -oris pain,grief]

English Explanatory Dictionary

n. (US dolor) literary sorrow, distress. [ME f. OF f. L dolor -oris pain,grief]

Oxford Reference Dictionary

adj. literary or joc. 1 distressing, painful; doleful, dismal. 2 distressed, sad. Derivatives: dolorously adv. Etymology: ME f. OF doleros f. LL dolorosus (as DOLOUR)

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Dolorous Dol"or*ous, a. [L. dolorosus, from dolor: cf. F. douloureux. See Dolor.] 1. Full of grief; sad; sorrowful; doleful; dismal; as, a dolorous object; dolorous discourses. You take me in too dolorous a sense; I spake to you for your comfort. --Shak. 2. Occasioning pain or grief; painful. Their dispatch is quick, and less dolorous than the paw of the bear or teeth of the lion. --Dr. H. More. -- Dol"or*ous*ly, adv. -- Dol"or*ous*ness, n.

Soule's Dictionary of English Synonyms

a. 1. Dismal, gloomy, cheerless, dark, dolesome. 2. Sorrowful, sad, piteous, rueful, woful, lugubrious, mournful, doleful, dolesome.

Moby Thesaurus

affecting, afflicted, afflictive, aggrieved, anguished, bitter, bleak, calamitous, careworn, cheerless, comfortless, deplorable, depressing, depressive, dire, discomforting, dismal, dismaying, distressful, distressing, doleful, dolorific, dolorogenic, dreary, dumb with grief, grief-stricken, griefful, grieved, grievous, heartbreaking, in grief, joyless, lamentable, lugubrious, miserable, mournful, moving, painful, pathetic, piteous, pitiable, plaintive, plangent, plunged in grief, poignant, regrettable, rueful, ruthful, sad, saddening, sharp, sore, sorrowed, sorrowful, sorrowing, tearful, touching, uncomfortable, woebegone, woeful, wretched
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby yuttadhammo » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:51 pm

Manapa wrote:Hi All,
I have been searching for Dolour (us - Dolor) and it relation to the pali word Dukkha, after being told it was directly related to it.

Although I can not find any reference to the relation, etymologically, the meaning does seam to give it a far closer translation to eachother!

Etymonline.com has:

dolorous
c.1400, "causing pain," from O.Fr. doloros (12c., Mod.Fr. douloureux) "painful, sorrowful, wretched," from L.L. dolorosus "painful, sorrowful," from L. dolor "pain, grief." Sense of "causing grief" is from mid-15c.; that of "full of sorrow" is from 1510s. Related: Dolorously; dolorousness.


I'm not sure about Latin, but in Pali/Sanskrit, dukkha comes from "du(ḥ) + /ka" = badness. "du-" is just a prefix like "mal-" in English and "ka" is probably just a suffix meaning "ness". Another etymology, Buddhist in origin is in the Visuddhimagga:

idha du iti ayaṃ saddo kucchite dissati. kucchitaṃ hi puttaṃ dupputtoti vadanti. khaṃ saddo pana tucche. tucchaṃ hi ākāsaṃ "kha"nti vuccati. idañca paṭhamasaccaṃ kucchitaṃ anekaupaddavādhiṭṭhānato. tucchaṃ bālajanaparikappitadhuvasubhasukhattabhāvavirahitato. tasmā kucchitattā tucchattā ca dukkhanti vuccati.

Here the word "du" is met with in the sense of vile (kucchita); for they call a vile child a "du-putta". The word "kham", however, is met with in the sense of empty, for they call empty space "kham". And the first truth is vile because it is the haunt of many dangers, and it is empty because it is devoid of the lastingness, beauty, pleasure, and self, conceived by rash people. So it is called dukkha.m, because of vileness and emptiness.

Vism. XVI.16 (Nyanamoli, p. 563, PTS p.494)

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Rui Sousa » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:19 pm

The English word came from the Latin word, but I could not trace a dolor into Etruscan or proto indo-european, so I couldn't find a common root with Sanskrit or Pali.

For what I can see du-kha and su-kha do not share a root with dolor.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dolor#Latin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
With Metta

Sunset

Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Sunset » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:33 pm

yuttadhammo wrote:Here the word "du" is met with in the sense of vile (kucchita); for they call a vile child a "du-putta". The word "kham", however, is met with in the sense of empty, for they call empty space "kham". And the first truth is vile because it is the haunt of many dangers, and it is empty because it is devoid of the lastingness, beauty, pleasure, and self, conceived by rash people. So it is called dukkha.m, because of vileness and emptiness.


These translations I have previously heard but their instrinctic nature appear not be of affliction but rather from the view point of the insight (vipassana) that results in liberation. These translations appear to side with dukkha lakkana, namely, the 2nd of the Three Characteristics.

I have heard a more basic meaning is 'difficult to bear' or 'hard to endure'. This meaning appears to tend more towards the state of mental afflication although not exclusively. For example, giving birth to a child, sickness, aging and death are 'difficult to bear', 'hard to endure'. Yet a mind with right view can endure these events without affliction.

Warm regards

:smile:

But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

Maha-parinibbana Sutta

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:42 pm

apparently it is linked, but not having knowledge of good etymology sites, or places to speak to, there is a distinct lacking in my ability to find any connection?

don't ya love titbits of info you get from people :)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:15 am

Manapa wrote:apparently it is linked, but not having knowledge of good etymology sites, or places to speak to, there is a distinct lacking in my ability to find any connection?

don't ya love titbits of info you get from people :)

Hi, Manapa,
You started by not being sure if it was linked. You've just seen a pretty good indication that it is not linked. Why do you now say that it is linked? :cookoo:
Quite apart for the facts of the etymology, what would you gain if it were linked? The historical connection does not affect the original meaning of 'dukkha', the present meaning of 'dukkha', or the present meaning of 'dolour': any connection, at the very best, is a factoid.
In the same way, it is entirely possibly that Julius Caesar was my 90-greats-grandfather. Would knowing that he was, change me? Should it?
There are better things to spend your time on.
:meditate:
Kim

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:14 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Manapa wrote:apparently it is linked, but not having knowledge of good etymology sites, or places to speak to, there is a distinct lacking in my ability to find any connection?

don't ya love titbits of info you get from people :)

Hi, Manapa,
You started by not being sure if it was linked. You've just seen a pretty good indication that it is not linked. Why do you now say that it is linked? :cookoo:
Quite apart for the facts of the etymology, what would you gain if it were linked? The historical connection does not affect the original meaning of 'dukkha', the present meaning of 'dukkha', or the present meaning of 'dolour': any connection, at the very best, is a factoid.
In the same way, it is entirely possibly that Julius Caesar was my 90-greats-grandfather. Would knowing that he was, change me? Should it?
There are better things to spend your time on.
:meditate:
Kim


:popcorn: why do you misrepresent what is said? :cookoo:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:36 am

I'm sorry, Manapa, if my interpretation of 'apparently' was stronger than yours. To me, 'apparently it is linked' is 'it appears [to me] that it is linked', or 'the evidence I've seen leads me to think it is linked' OWTTE.
If you meant something less definite, my response was a bit stronger than it should have been - though I still don't think there's any benefit to be gained from a definitive answer to the question.
Peace,
Kim

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:15 pm

try apparantly, according to the souse of the information, it is linked
as I have no reason to think he is wrong, apart from not being able to find the link, which is more to do with doubt, than a knowing he is wrong, and knowing his credentials in the area, apparantly it is linked!

but having another perspective on Dukkha, to understand the term, cant hurt can it!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby Rui Sousa » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:07 pm

From this book An etymological dictionary of the Latin language by Francis Edward Jackson Valpy:

Image

I understand that this author is claiming that Dolor cames from Doleo, wich came from the Greek. Not sure if it helps.
With Metta

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Re: directly related word to Dukkha in English

Postby yuttadhammo » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:26 pm

Sunset wrote:These translations I have previously heard but their instrinctic nature appear not be of affliction but rather from the view point of the insight (vipassana) that results in liberation. These translations appear to side with dukkha lakkana, namely, the 2nd of the Three Characteristics.

I have heard a more basic meaning is 'difficult to bear' or 'hard to endure'. This meaning appears to tend more towards the state of mental afflication although not exclusively. For example, giving birth to a child, sickness, aging and death are 'difficult to bear', 'hard to endure'. Yet a mind with right view can endure these events without affliction.

Yes, that is why I gave this as an ancillary definition in my post... if you had quoted the whole post, you would see:

In Pali/Sanskrit, dukkha comes from "du(ḥ) + /ka" = badness. "du-" is just a prefix like "mal-" in English and "ka" is probably just a suffix meaning "ness".


In this I was following the PED:

Dukkha

Dukkha (adj. -- n.) [Sk. duḥkha fr. duḥ -- ka, an adj. forma- tion fr. prefix duḥ (see du). According to others an analogy formation after sukha, q. v.; Bdhgh (at Vism 494) expls dukkha as du+kha, where du=du1 and kha=ākāsa. See also def. at Vism 461.]


If you are just looking at dukkha in terms of being a physical discomfort, try Vism 14.128 (Nyanamoli p. 519, PTS 461):

aniṭṭhaphoṭṭhabbānubhavanalakkhaṇaṃ dukkhaṃ, sampayuttānaṃ milāpanarasaṃ, kāyikābādhapaccupaṭṭhānaṃ, kāyindriyapadaṭṭhānaṃ.

Pain has the characteristic of experiencing an undesirable tangible datum. Its function is to wither associated states. It is manifested as bodily affliction. Its proximate cause is the body faculty.


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