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Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:18 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby yuttadhammo » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:31 pm





Upasampadā: 4 December, 2001

Sunset

Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Sunset » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:09 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:25 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Sunset

Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Sunset » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:31 am


Sunset

Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Sunset » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:43 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:56 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Sasana
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Sasana » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:09 pm

"If the problem can be solved there's no use worrying about it, if it cant worrying will do no good." - 7 years in Tibet

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - The Buddha

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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:36 am

Rather than engaging in speculation, I think it would be better for some monasteries to make men and women equal in rules, and for other monasteries to keep the traditional rules. Then we can be mindful of the results.

If there are already monasteries out there which are like both, perhaps people with experiences with both monasteries could share their insights on how they think their way is the best. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


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Sasana
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Sasana » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:52 am

"If the problem can be solved there's no use worrying about it, if it cant worrying will do no good." - 7 years in Tibet

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - The Buddha

Individual
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:40 am

The best things in life aren't things.


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Sasana
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Sasana » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:58 am

"If the problem can be solved there's no use worrying about it, if it cant worrying will do no good." - 7 years in Tibet

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - The Buddha

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Hanzze
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Hanzze » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:43 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:16 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Sasana
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Sasana » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:32 am

"If the problem can be solved there's no use worrying about it, if it cant worrying will do no good." - 7 years in Tibet

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - The Buddha

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yuttadhammo
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby yuttadhammo » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:43 am

Didn't really want to broach the subject again, as it doesn't seem to be an easy one to discuss rationally, but here it is broached already :)

The intention was to try to show how the reason for the unequal footing has nothing to do with differences between men and women, but the relationship between them. As said, there is no equality among bhikkhus as it is - everyone has a place in the totem pole irrespective of their personal worth. I think this point is missed by a mile in most discussions of the garu dhamma.

One thing the OP failed to take into account is that the garu dhamma do not just enforce unequal footing, they also enforce inequality in practices, e.g. length of vuṭṭhāna-vidhī. But again, I don't see the reason for these rules as being a view that women are inferior; since adding Bhikkhunis to the mix is going to create more problems, it is not hard to see why the rules regarding Bhikkhunis should be more strict. Fair? No. Expedient? I think so. Surely many will disagree, but given that we monks are happy to take on rules, the stricter the better (hence the dhutanga practices), it still seems little more than conceit that drives most of the "equality" rants in regards to the bhikkhuni ordination. The rest of us are rather a bit jealous of the challenges allowed for bhikkhunis over bhikkhus ;)

Apologies in advance for stirring up the hornet's nest once more.




Upasampadā: 4 December, 2001

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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:28 am

The best things in life aren't things.


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yuttadhammo
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby yuttadhammo » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:08 am





Upasampadā: 4 December, 2001

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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:16 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


rowyourboat
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Re: Canonicity of the Bhikkhuni Garu Dhamma

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:16 pm

I think the Buddha could see far more than we can see in our limited logical ways of viewing the world. All our arguments amount to nothing if the Buddha could (and it is said that he can) see the outcomes of current causes (ie future effects). He proclaimed that what he taught was like a handful of leaves and what he could see was like all the leaves in the forest. So I think we need to be a bit humble in our judgements of his decisions.

with metta

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With Metta

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Mudita
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