Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Reductor
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Reductor » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:42 am


alan
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby alan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:53 am

That is the funny thing about delusion--you don't know when you're in it.
Dynamic Jhana--wow! You must be so cool. Sure wish I could go there.

Clayton
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:04 am


Clayton
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:10 am


alan
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby alan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:16 am

Make sense, please.
No one is making any sense.
P.S. Slander--that is a serious charge. But you haven't read the Suttas, have you?

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Ben
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:28 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

alan
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby alan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:36 am

In other words, its a fraud.

Clayton
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:39 am

Thank you for your respectful response Ben. I understand your position. You are correct that what I call Jhana does not line up with some of the Suttras and Commentaries. I accept that. Indeed it is important to tend towards caution when assessing our progress. I have checked my experience with not only my friends in the hardcore community but also strict Vinaya Monks... its good to get a 2nd opinion...

Clayton

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Reductor » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:02 am


owenbecker
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby owenbecker » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:39 pm

Hey Clayton,
Probably best not bothering with these guys. They seem to have overdosed on the medicine.
-o

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:23 pm


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:24 pm


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:28 pm


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:37 pm


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby elcfa » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:09 pm


gsteinb
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:42 pm

Actual Freedom because the freedom discussed in the suttas (arahantship) wasn't really the freedom of the eradication of the grasping and clinging because that's not really possible except with this new thing discovered by some guy a couple of years ago?

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Kenshou » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:26 pm

I think I realize what exactly is so funny about all of this hardcore stuff to me, in part at least.

It is said that patterns of self-identification, self-contraction, whatever you call it, remain but are not identified with, not stuck to, etc., right? This is the impression I've gotten from Ingram, Folk may be different, I simply haven't had the energy to read his material thoroughly.

But anyway, I have realized that that is simply an oxymoron. You cannot be self-identifying and yet also not. You either are or you aren't. You can't both be making a self and yet not be making a self out of the self-making. If you are self-making, you are self-making, and that's all there is to it. You may see it with a degree of wisdom and not be entirely hoodwinked by it, but if you are doing it, the fact is that no matter how you twist the words, you are doing it. If arahatship were gained, ignorance defeated, self-making would have no fuel to bubble up, at least in my comparatively traditionalist understanding.

If I'm misrepresenting anyone, don't hesitate to say so.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:35 pm


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manas
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby manas » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:34 pm

The Buddha, while alive, was very strict indeed regarding the misrepresentation of his Teaching:

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So, misrepresentation of the Buddha was happening while he was physically present....and 2500 years have passed since then! And the Teaching, well before KF or DI had ever set eyes on the Dhamma, had already branched into the many varied sects even within the Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana (etc) schools.

The suttas in the Pali Tipitaka are the closest and most reliable source of the authentic teachings of the historical Buddha (but would we want any from any 'other' Buddha?). They are probably not perfect, they might have a few corruptions (I am not qualified to judge though), but they are still the best we have. Delusion being so tricky to overcome, we surely need the aid of a Buddha, not just contemporaries who feel they have either rediscovered, redefined, or even surpassed the Teaching of One whom, by all accounts, was singularly impressive in a really huge way. He sent waves through the spiritual dimension of humanity, and the ripples can be perceived even now. I feel them whenever I read the words of the Dhammapada, for example. Such beauty, truth, and power. And the words of the Buddha (as we have them) keep my mind from straying into it's own self-serving version of truth (delusion is very tricky...).

So what I find so irritating about the redefining of the Dhamma that is going on in some circles is the presumption that ANY of us have the same singularly massive spiritual footprint of a Tathagatha. We don't. When a true One arises, we will know (not in this lifetime). Until then, I will continue to use the teachings of the most recent One as my guide.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby M. Christine » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:31 pm

My daughter was 4 when she became obsessed with Jackie Chan. There was no rest until we enrolled her in A Shaolin northern long arm school.

One class and she was done. "Kung Fu is HARD. I just want to make up my own moves." OK, but that's not Kung Fu.

As it turned out she became a disciplined practitioner.



Like a bird scratching in the garden, this debate has kicked up a few leaves. Grateful for the fresh air.


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