Why? You can say 'it's just this' or 'just that' as much as you like. Yet while I have had some extraordinary insights, and transcendent, timeless experiences, and permanent, profound shifts in my practice and life, I have not experienced what may be called 'permanent, complete and perfect enlightenment' nor do I know of anyone who has. Thus it seems rather unlikely to occur.5heaps wrote:why say that?Shonin wrote:And even if it does exist it is likely to remain out of the range of my experience.
awakening myth?
Re: awakening myth?
- tiltbillings
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Re: awakening myth?
Of course, if you had, you would be fully awakened, and if you came here to then blab about it, I would then question if you really were.Shonin wrote: I have not experienced what may be called 'permanent, complete and perfect enlightenment' nor do I know of anyone who has.
On the other hand Dogen's sitting as an expression of awakening has something to say to this issue. With a maturing practice there is, I would think, an increasing number of moments of where there is a openness, a letting go, insight of what characterizes - essentially is - what is awakening. "Permanent, complete and perfect" would be nice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: awakening myth?
since perfect enlightenment doesnt come about as if by magic, look to its causes and conditions, namely the atta/anatta distinctionShonin wrote:I have not experienced what may be called 'permanent, complete and perfect enlightenment' nor do I know of anyone who has. Thus it seems rather unlikely to occur.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Re: awakening myth?
Completely agree. This imperfect world and my imperfect awakening to it is my unfolding enlightenment. And this may be heretical here I know but I think holding onto the idea of "Permanent, complete and perfect" enlightenment can be an obstacle to opening up this, here and now.tiltbillings wrote:Of course, if you had, you would be fully awakened, and if you came here to then blab about it, I would then question if you really were.
On the other hand Dogen's sitting as an expression of awakening has something to say to this issue. With a maturing practice there is, I would think, an increasing number of moments of where there is a openness, a letting go, insight of what characterizes - essentially is - what is awakening. "Permanent, complete and perfect" would be nice.
Last edited by Shonin on Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: awakening myth?
Not sure what you're saying here. I haven't implied that enlightenment occurs 'by magic' or 'without practice'. And I don't think there are many Buddhists who don't investigate Atta/Anatta. If that was all it took, we'd be inundated with Arahats.5heaps wrote:since perfect enlightenment doesnt come about as if by magic, look to its causes and conditions, namely the atta/anatta distinction
Re: awakening myth?
what does it mean to say that you can only verify perfect enlightenment by being perfectly enlightened? it means its disconnected from everything else - not dependent.Shonin wrote:I haven't implied that enlightenment occurs 'by magic' or 'without practice'.
if its dependent, then the fact of perfect enlightenment is known when its causes and conditions are known.
right? you cant build a boat when you dont have an idea of a boat. you cant reach enlightenment when things appear to be self
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Re: awakening myth?
5 Heaps,
To be honest, I'm still struggling to understand what you're saying.
However, I will say that even though things are sometimes deeply seen to be not-self, this state is impermanent - due presumably to the impermanence of underlying conditions.
To be honest, I'm still struggling to understand what you're saying.
However, I will say that even though things are sometimes deeply seen to be not-self, this state is impermanent - due presumably to the impermanence of underlying conditions.