Good to hear from you, Dan! I believe we were having this same conversation back in February. I feel a bit silly bringing it up again...so thanks for being willing to address it again.Dan74 wrote:Renunciation is essential in due course. Of course much can be done before then too, so I find your friend's absolutist statement pretty absurd.
Like I said elsewhere, we start exactly where we are, whether we like it or not, and this means some steps are appropriate now and others later. In Korea where monastic tradition is still strong, there are many serious lay couples who practice together and are very committed. Some may eventually ordain, some not. But I guess the important thing is to practice hard in whatever situation one is in, then the next correct step will be naturally illuminated.
I think we're all in agreement that renunciation is essential at some stage of the practice -- and perhaps, to some degree, at all stages of the practice. It's not my intention to debate that. What I've been trying to get a clearer understanding of is whether it makes sense for a non-renunciant to meditate, as opposed to just trying to collect merit -- and if so, how that meditation practice should take shape. Should it be limited to simple breath counting? If not, what would be a good program to set for oneself? What would be a realistic set of goals and expectations? By non-renunciant I mean someone who has decided to go on living an "ordinary" worldly life, within the guidelines our teacher provided for householders.
My friend seems to argue that it's pointless to try any type of serious meditation unless one has permanently abandoned mundane life and gone off to some mountain hermitage, and again I'm not here to dismiss what he's saying, only to point out that such a stance seems to undermine the approach taken by groups such as the IMS
(many if not most IMS teachers, let alone students, are laypeople) and even some Ch'an organizations, e.g. Dharma Drum.
Venerable has addressed the topic before and I wouldn't want to try his patience by querying him about it again! Here's a definitive post he wrote back in May:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=10047#p10047" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If one has a spouse and kids, though, or parents to look after, the "next correct step" isn't a solo decision. The Korean couples you mention have the benefit of sharing the same faith and goals, but that may not happen so readily in the West. Probably quite a few of us here have spouses who are not Buddhists....the next correct step will be naturally illuminated.
Yeah, I see what you mean. What I had in mind was partaking in sensual pleasures as appropriate within the parameters set by the five precepts.TMingyur wrote:Honestly "partaking in sensual pleasures" appears too undifferentiated to me and thus there is too much bias towards wrong understanding.