Lay Yogi?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Lay Yogi?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Dan74 wrote:Renunciation is essential in due course. Of course much can be done before then too, so I find your friend's absolutist statement pretty absurd.

Like I said elsewhere, we start exactly where we are, whether we like it or not, and this means some steps are appropriate now and others later. In Korea where monastic tradition is still strong, there are many serious lay couples who practice together and are very committed. Some may eventually ordain, some not. But I guess the important thing is to practice hard in whatever situation one is in, then the next correct step will be naturally illuminated.
Good to hear from you, Dan! I believe we were having this same conversation back in February. I feel a bit silly bringing it up again...so thanks for being willing to address it again. :)

I think we're all in agreement that renunciation is essential at some stage of the practice -- and perhaps, to some degree, at all stages of the practice. It's not my intention to debate that. What I've been trying to get a clearer understanding of is whether it makes sense for a non-renunciant to meditate, as opposed to just trying to collect merit -- and if so, how that meditation practice should take shape. Should it be limited to simple breath counting? If not, what would be a good program to set for oneself? What would be a realistic set of goals and expectations? By non-renunciant I mean someone who has decided to go on living an "ordinary" worldly life, within the guidelines our teacher provided for householders.

My friend seems to argue that it's pointless to try any type of serious meditation unless one has permanently abandoned mundane life and gone off to some mountain hermitage, and again I'm not here to dismiss what he's saying, only to point out that such a stance seems to undermine the approach taken by groups such as the IMS
(many if not most IMS teachers, let alone students, are laypeople) and even some Ch'an organizations, e.g. Dharma Drum.

Venerable has addressed the topic before and I wouldn't want to try his patience by querying him about it again! Here's a definitive post he wrote back in May:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=10047#p10047" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...the next correct step will be naturally illuminated.
If one has a spouse and kids, though, or parents to look after, the "next correct step" isn't a solo decision. The Korean couples you mention have the benefit of sharing the same faith and goals, but that may not happen so readily in the West. Probably quite a few of us here have spouses who are not Buddhists.
TMingyur wrote:Honestly "partaking in sensual pleasures" appears too undifferentiated to me and thus there is too much bias towards wrong understanding.
Yeah, I see what you mean. What I had in mind was partaking in sensual pleasures as appropriate within the parameters set by the five precepts.
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Dan74
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Re: Lay Yogi?

Post by Dan74 »

Hi Lazy_Eye!

Thanks for linking to the venerable's post. It sums things up quite neatly. Although some aspects may be debatable. Cuffs can seem to fall off in certain situations and environments and when those change, they may snap back on before one can notice!

I guess in every situation there are some opportunities to practice and in the end it becomes a question of priorities. Sure it is easy to dream of ordaining and leading a holy life but is this what we really want?

To me, at least, motivation seems to be key.
_/|\_
Sanghamitta
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Re: Lay Yogi?

Post by Sanghamitta »

N
tiltbillings wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Dipa Ma was a householder...and it's said she went far as a householder. :namaste:
Dipa Ma: http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2 ... pa_ma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A great role model. And one unencumbered by thoughts of becoming a Bodhisattva or realising her Cosmic Nature.
She led a life consistant with understanding things as they are...and found that could be done in the context of a householder life. Its about the small things , done with consistency and with diligence, not grandiose plans for Buddhahood on a spotlit stage.
Its not what you eschew. Its what you do with awareness.
Last edited by Sanghamitta on Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Lay Yogi?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sanghamitta wrote: Its not what you eschew. Its what you do with awareness.
Nor is it about credentials or the supposed certitude of attainment. It is, indeed, what you do with awareness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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