Online Pali Canon?

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Online Pali Canon?

Postby AlaskanDhamma » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:42 pm

Ok so I know the idea of an online Pali Canon would take forever, but I'm just curious about it.

What is the closest thing to having an online readable Pali Canon? Is there anything that even closely compares?

Thanks for you time.
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:46 pm

“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby piotr » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:50 pm

Hi,

Here are many suttas that are not available on ATI (especially from Dīgha- and Majjhima-nikāya):

http://tipitaka.wikia.com
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:53 pm

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/

These translations are rough, but generally serviceable.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:58 pm

The major sources appear to me to be:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/
http://mettanet.org/
Translations from the latter appear in other places as well. It is more comprehensive than Access to Insight, but the translations seem to be quite rough, as Tilt says.

The translations on Access to Insight tend to be quite selective. The majority are by Ajahn Thanissaro, whose translations seem OK, though I personally prefer the more conventional translations of the Pali terms, but that's just me...

Though it is nice to have this stuff on line, if I want to do some serious study I prefer the translations available from, in particular, Wisdom. http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/c_teachings.lasso

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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby AlaskanDhamma » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:03 pm

Oh, thank you very much everyone! I wasn't aware of some of these sites. I will do some due research now, thanks! :namaste:
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:19 pm

AlaskanDhamma wrote:Ok so I know the idea of an online Pali Canon would take forever, but I'm just curious about it.

It is already available — the Pali text, the Commentaries and the Subcommentaries, and in many different scripts.

Tipitaka.org
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:25 pm

Bhante,

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
AlaskanDhamma wrote:Ok so I know the idea of an online Pali Canon would take forever, but I'm just curious about it.

It is already available — the Pali text, the Commentaries and the Subcommentaries, and in many different scripts.

Tipitaka.org


That is a great site, but I kind of think that he might mean in translation, which is how I took it, since reading Pali, though not as rare as turtle fangs, is not common.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:54 pm

Well, his avatar is apparently reading the Pali texts :reading:

BTW. I added a few chapters to the Wikpitaka. It was surprisingly easy to join and start contributing. Let me know if I made any errors.
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby Kare » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Bhante,

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
AlaskanDhamma wrote:Ok so I know the idea of an online Pali Canon would take forever, but I'm just curious about it.

It is already available — the Pali text, the Commentaries and the Subcommentaries, and in many different scripts.

Tipitaka.org


That is a great site, but I kind of think that he might mean in translation, which is how I took it, since reading Pali, though not as rare as turtle fangs, is not common.


Translations are useful, but translations can never be trusted 100%. In Italian there is a saying, traduttore, traditore! ("translator, you're a traitor!"). I have translated lots of Pali texts, so I speak from my own experience here. :lol:

Therefore, some study of Pali is very useful, and time well spent for anyone who is interested in the Buddha's Dhamma. Even a modest level of Pali knowledge will be of great help for understanding the Dhamma, and for understanding that some details in the interpretation of the Dhamma are open to discussion.

But don't take my word for it (I'm a translator, and not to be trusted! :lol: ) Learn some Pali, and see it for yourself! :reading:
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:03 am

Kare and everyone else,

Translations are useful, but translations can never be trusted 100%.


Here is a line from a verse passage:

satto sa.msaaramaapaadi, kamma.m tassa paraayanan ti - SN i 38

The late and former (obviously) president of the Pali Text Society, I.B. Horner, translates this as:

"This being is bound to samsara, karma is his means for going beyond." BUDDHIST TEXTS THROUGH THE AGES, page 80, selection 67.

Ven Bodhi's translation:

A being enters upon samsara; Kamma determines his destiny. CDB I 129.

Without seeing Horner's first, Ven Bodhi's translation is a little weak, missing something of the significance of paraayana, which can easily signify awakening as a goal - destiny vs going beyond. Also, "is his means" vs "determines." I think, as well as I can understand the grammatical structure if this verse and verse is harder to understand, Horner's is by far the better translation.


As for getting acquainted with Pali without actually committing oneself to a several year project of learning the language, the PALI WORKBOOK is a good choice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby pt1 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:48 am

Currently, openlibrary.org seems to be the only place online that also has a few books from the abhidhamma basket in English (dhammasangani, vibhanga and part of patthana). Even though these are only scans and the translations are quite old (1900-1906), it’s really great finally having access to source abhidhamma texts.

Best wishes
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:19 am

Greetings piotr,

piotr wrote:Hi,

Here are many suttas that are not available on ATI (especially from Dīgha- and Majjhima-nikāya):

http://tipitaka.wikia.com


Nice find. I've just added it to...

Google Saffron
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=00545 ... cbjbznmwso

...which of course is another place people can find suttas since it now references most of the sites mentioned thus far.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby nathan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:22 pm

My dream Tipitika would be something like what has been done with the Old and New Testaments. This is a huge project and the TIpitaka is much larger but over time...

As I see it this would involve creating a similar system to that used for biblical concordances, dictionaries and interlinear texts. A wiki environment would be the ideal place for co-operative scholarship and now we have a wiki to begin to work with. Are there copyright or other issues that prevent including all the other work that has already been done into this wiki? The pali text is already data in various scripts. The development of a number reference for each term would be something I would think would require some expertise and perhaps some kind of formal agreements to execute, I'm not sure. Then factor in the existing dictionary info and so forth, the existing translation work, fill in the blanks that are left and we are on our way to something really accessible and navigable.

I have already been wondering why so much of this work is partly here and partly there and why all those who are investing energy in this work don't simply combine all of these efforts into one centralized meta-work. I suppose if economic or legal factors are involved it is one thing but if this is largely an academic enterprise or a labor of love then I don't know why most of those who are already busy about this kind of work haven't already got this kind of a cooperative effort underway. There is the PTS but the end product of that work fills a room with hard copy texts. Somewhere along the line all these texts are data of some kind and available somewhere. How could we encourage the online compilation of all of it?

With a wiki of the Tipitaka that is well constructed, the commentaries, old and new, and whatever other useful information can also be collected and linked in and this becomes more accessible as well. It seems like something amazing is possible and at the same time small but real and highly beneficial steps are also possible. Is there anything we can do to encourage such developments short of becoming pali scholars or academic experts of one kind or another ourselves? 'Cause, I'm warning ya, I'll do it if I have to! On the other hand I can cut and paste or type in the existing translations and so on if it is legal or permissible to do so.

The situation as it stands is actually awful, we have a huge amount of excellent information now (compared to even a decade ago) but we can spend days trying to find some particular detail in that mass of knowledge. (The longer we put off collating and organizing the knowledge the more chaos is created for those who hopefully will.) Strong's concordance alone triggered a massive increase in biblical scholarship by making terms and concepts searchable. My father is a PhD theologian and he told me that once the concordances and interlineal texts went digital it reduced his time searching through texts from hours to minutes. So huge efficiencies are achievable for both scholars and students. The Dhamma has many structures of its own which can be applied to the structure of the data as well. There should be a great many ways that we can approach ordering this knowledge so that every newbie does not have to spend all of their time asking the same questions over and over because there is no straightforward way to access the information. This can free up teachers and practitioners enormously from having to present questions and answers regarding many things again and again (as we can see happens continually in the context of forums), making space for many other kinds of teaching foci such as aspects of technique which really benefit from one on one instruction and guidance and other kinds of study and discussion which can contribute to enhanced and deepened understandings for all of us.

May the TIpitaka be well and happy. :smile:
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:51 pm

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am amazed almost every day how I can do searches for articles in a few seconds that took me hours in the library back in the 70s and 80s.

What I find frustrating is that printed material of the Tipitika is not searchable. I have the translations large parts of the Nikayas on my bookshelf (I'm waiting impatiently for Bhikkhu Bodhi's complete Anguttara Nikaya...). I prefer those to the on-line versions because they are comprehensive, have good footnotes, and are good, consistent, translations.

However, if I want to locate a particular passage ("In which Sutta did the Buddha mention XXX?") I often wind up using Google to search on-line, then I can easily locate it in the printed volume. The indexes and concordances in the books simply don't compare to electronic search...

Metta
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:52 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Nathan,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am amazed almost every day how I can do searches for articles in a few seconds that took me hours in the library back in the 70s and 80s.

What I find frustrating is that printed Tipitika material that I own is not easily searchable. I have the translations large parts of the Nikayas on my bookshelf (I'm waiting impatiently for Bhikkhu Bodhi's complete Anguttara Nikaya...). I prefer those to the on-line versions because they are comprehensive, have good footnotes, and are good, consistent, translations.

However, if I want to locate a particular passage ("In which Sutta did the Buddha mention XXX?") I often wind up using Google to search on-line, then I can easily locate it in the printed volume. The indexes and concordances in the books simply don't compare to electronic search...

Metta
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:23 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Well, his avatar is apparently reading the Pali texts :reading:.


:jumping:

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:BTW. I added a few chapters to the Wikpitaka. It was surprisingly easy to join and start contributing. Let me know if I made any errors.


Uh oh . . . that's asking for trouble (for that site). A Tipitaka anyone can edit? Nothing can go wrong there, right? :jumping:

I think they'll find that the site will be better run by having someone well-versed in the Canon, like Bhikkhu Pesala edit the contributions, before they go online.
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby nathan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:53 pm

TheDhamma wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Well, his avatar is apparently reading the Pali texts :reading:.


:jumping:

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:BTW. I added a few chapters to the Wikpitaka. It was surprisingly easy to join and start contributing. Let me know if I made any errors.


Uh oh . . . that's asking for trouble (for that site). A Tipitaka anyone can edit? Nothing can go wrong there, right? :jumping:

I think they'll find that the site will be better run by having someone well-versed in the Canon, like Bhikkhu Pesala edit the contributions, before they go online.
I prefer the open wiki model for many reasons, both high and low. There is no reason pali text and even numerous translations and transliterations can't be compiled and compared side by side in one place. There is immense value in doing this as Tilt has already demonstrated. Sure, early stages of wiki development are atrocious. This one will be too if I have anything to do with it. As in other fields more expert and capable people are then compelled to come in and vastly improve the content or else put up with all of the endless misconceptions that poor work creates. That's why I said, "I'm warning you, I'll do it!" Either content we all acknowledge as excellent will prevail or the fallout from bad content will become an increasingly big issue. Simple as that. May the wikiTipitaka be well and happy.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:58 am

Hi Nathan,

Is that wiki Tipitaka site your website? If so, then I wish you success and good luck. I definitely want it to succeed, for the good of the Dhamma, good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end.

Hopefully, you won't get some bot spammers putting up some garbage like I had at my site. Now my site still receives requests for articles, they just have to go through me (and some monks who also edit) first before it goes online.
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Re: Online Pali Canon?

Postby nathan » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:16 am

TheDhamma wrote:Hi Nathan,

Is that wiki Tipitaka site your website? If so, then I wish you success and good luck. I definitely want it to succeed, for the good of the Dhamma, good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end.
No. It is not my website. I am not behind it or involved in it in any way at this time. I like to be in front with the net and not behind, for other reasons. I like it to be obvious that I'm involved or not involved at all. I like forums like this that way. Nathan is my given name. These are my actual perceptions and misperceptions, communications and miscommunications and no one else's. That way hopefully things stay as 'real' as possible under the circumstances.

I like wiki, I like the whole idea for many reasons. To present these fully would be mostly tangential to the focus here. :coffee: I like a lot of other developments as well, like Dhammawheel which is something I hope I can more readily contribute something useful and beneficial to. Maybe I will 'graduate' to wikiTipitaka someday. :smile:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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