YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . . - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel

Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:25 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:09 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:40 am


Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Freawaru » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:42 am

Hi IanAnd,

thank you for the clarification :smile:

User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 2637
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:57 pm

Why has this thread gone off topic?
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Nyana » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:30 pm


User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby manas » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:45 am

I just want to jump in here for a moment...what do (some) people mean when they claim that one can become 'addicted' to jhana? As I understand it, Jhanas are ever-increasing levels of letting go, of renunciation. Just to attain the first, one had to let go of ill-will, sensual desire, agitation / remorse, sloth / torpor, and sceptical doubt. In my limited experience (I have only had momentary states of concentration thus far) it is: In full awareness, letting go of wanting anything at all, a willingness to simply be present with one object, to the exclusion of all else, even thought. It is a conscious turning away from wanting, which totally opposes addiction, does it not? The Buddha himself advises us to 'be yoked' to the pleasure of Jhana, and that it is 'not to be feared'.

Anyway all this talk of Jhana is encouraging me to go back to meditating with more diligence again...thank you to all.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

User avatar
Vepacitta
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 3:58 pm
Location: Somewhere on the slopes of Mt. Meru

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Vepacitta » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:06 am

The jhanic states can be highly pleasurable (esp. the first Jhana - concentration with thought, rapture ...). They are intense, concentrated states - and they aren't necessarily the hallmark of renunciation per se -- e.g. on a permanent basis. O sure - you've got no problems whilst you're in a jhanic state - but it's temporary - and when you're out - there's still work to be done - it's tempting to 'get back in' and just 'groove' in that state.

Keep in mind, if one can attain the jhanas, the grasping is indeed very subtle - but it can be there. There have been people who enter jhana and think "yippe! that's it - nibbana!" :woohoo: but it ain't. In fact the Buddha's first two teachers (someone fill in the names) had each reached different jhanic states and had 'stopped there'. It took the Buddha to realise that such states weren't "it". I recall discussing with my teacher that it seemed that the Buddha may have been the first one to describe such subtle states as jhana and the immaterial or formless states - people may have entered them before - but it took the Buddha to really analyse them - codify them in a way that could be described and followed and taught in a systematic way and analysed after one emerged from jhana - there's the whole 'looking at dhammas' which is the crux of the practise and which is described in the suttas - especially with Sariputta - there are various suttas wherein Ven. Sariputta describes his entry in the various jhanas - and his analysis of what went on after he emerged from each ... but I digress ... :thinking:

Minds functioning out of ignorance - even very 'light' ignorance - grasp onto things - so there are many texts (not just suttas but texts by various teachers - Aj. Chah, Aj. Sumedho, Ven. Bodhi come to mind) that warn about the tendency to grasp even in these highly subtle and concentrated states.

To put a cap on it - jhanas are great - but they aren't ultimately "it" - they're part of the vehicle that can take one to "it".

I'm sure others who are more articulate than I can flesh this out more fully for you.

From misty Mt. Meru,

V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura

User avatar
IanAnd
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 am
Location: the deserts of Arizona

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby IanAnd » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:11 am

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:31 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Nyana » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:20 am


User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby legolas » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:53 am

The jhanas as described in the suttas are wonderful stages of letting go. As already stated by the Buddha they are not to be feared but embraced on the path. The peace, serenity, joy, bliss and pure pleasure (non sensual) that they provide on the path should shine as a beacon for seekers of Dhamma. However we seem to live in a "no pain, no gain" culture and to actually enjoy the path is a sin.
My point is, why of the two interpretations of jhana such credence is given to the "ambulance" variety when they are so obviously not the ones taught in the suttas? I realise that other people will argue they are, but the eel-wriggling and mental and verbal gymnastics that are churned out to support this argument verge on the childish. Has any one read Ajahn Brahmavamso account of the "body" as regards jhana? Thanissaro Bhikkhu gives this view very short shrift in the book "The experience of samadhi" by Shankman. The idea of what constitutes a "body" in the "ambulance tradition" would be laughable if it was not so serious.
Even more worrying is the tradition that thinks jhana is not neccessary. If you practice meditation it should be jhana, no other meditation is given as the means to enlightenment, check it out its all in the suttas. That is not to say that you actually need to formally meditate to achieve stream entry. However when the Buddha finally realised the path it was when he remembered the jhana from his youth, "this is the way to enlightenment".
There are a few negative ninnies out there who seem to thrive on being glum and closed to changes in their own views. I would have thought the ability to make adjustments in our understanding is a requisite for advancement on the path. I have made many such adjustments and expect to make many more because this is an adventure and a joy.
I have purposely given no links. If I did they would either not be read or would be treated to a semi mystical re orientation, where they would "not actually mean what they are saying" :shrug: If people really want to get a grasp on the Dhamma then with an open mind and an inquisitive nature, not being tied to tradition or a teacher...

Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Kenshou » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:16 am


User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby legolas » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:57 am


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:03 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:20 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:51 am


User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby legolas » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:09 pm


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:10 pm

A note to Ian: Obviously your thread has gotten away from you and what you wanted to do, which is why it ended up in the debate section. If you want to discuss jhana meditation, then do so in the mediation forum without the comments about others and other methods that invite debate. And I would strongly recommend keeping your comments concise and clear.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:13 pm



Return to “Samatha Bhāvana”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 19 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine