the 5th precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Reductor
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Reductor »

Moth wrote:Sorry to ressurect an old thread.

So, is drinking caffine considered a violation of the 5th precept?
Gawd, I sure hope not! ;)
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DNS
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by DNS »

Caffeine and smoking are fine.

http://buddhismatoz.com/s/Smoking.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But for monks, in my opinion, it is similar to indulgence in the senses and probably not appropriate; but that is just my opinion, no set rule in the Vinaya.
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retrofuturist
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,
David N. Snyder wrote:But for monks, in my opinion, it is similar to indulgence in the senses and probably not appropriate; but that is just my opinion, no set rule in the Vinaya.
I agree with you on the smoking issue (though as you point out, it's not connected to precept violation) - to me it's more that it is not a valid requisite, and is in fact harmful.

As for caffeine I certainly wouldn't consider it problematic at all, particularly since drinks like tea contain caffeine, and it can be used responsibly... especially if monks need to pull an all-nighter!

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by DNS »

Hi Retro,

Yes, I meant smoking is probably inappropriate (not caffeine) due to its harmful effects and indulgence in the senses (but not a precept violation).

Caffeine is not bad and does not appear to effect the mind or consciousness in moderate amounts. Tea, especially, only has small amounts (as compared to coffee).

I am a big tea drinker myself, about 8 cups of Jasmine per day. :tongue:
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Vepacitta »

Coffee, coffee, you make me glow
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Ytrog
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Ytrog »

I'm currently trying to lessen my intake of caffeine. At work I was drinking about 10 cups of coffee a day plus some cola. The effects are really like an addiction with even withdrawal effects in the weekend manifested as headaches.

I would say that when considering caffeine that you should keep in mind that it is an addictive substance. When you have addictions your mind is not free. I believe this is stated in the Tipitaka.
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by suanck »

*
If I remember correctly, a guy (Sarakani) of the Sakyan clan was drunk most of the times. But at death, he became a Stream-Enterer (Samyutta Nikaya).

Suan.
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Ben »

suanck wrote:*
If I remember correctly, a guy (Sarakani) of the Sakyan clan was drunk most of the times. But at death, he became a Stream-Enterer (Samyutta Nikaya).

Suan.
Yes,but I wouldn't want to base my behaviour on Sarakani's example and I wouldn't recommend anyone else to follow Sarakani;s example either. Instead, I take the fifth precept and maintain it. When we take refuge in the Dhamma, we are also taking refuge in the three-fold training which includes virtue. And by maintaining the precepts, they give one a refuge that offers excellent protection and a firm foundation for the development of samadhi and panna. Not only do I know it through my understanding of the texts but also through direct experience.
kind regards

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Paññāsikhara
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Ben wrote:
suanck wrote:*
If I remember correctly, a guy (Sarakani) of the Sakyan clan was drunk most of the times. But at death, he became a Stream-Enterer (Samyutta Nikaya).

Suan.
Yes,but I wouldn't want to base my behaviour on Sarakani's example and I wouldn't recommend anyone else to follow Sarakani;s example either. Instead, I take the fifth precept and maintain it. When we take refuge in the Dhamma, we are also taking refuge in the three-fold training which includes virtue. And by maintaining the precepts, they give one a refuge that offers excellent protection and a firm foundation for the development of samadhi and panna. Not only do I know it through my understanding of the texts but also through direct experience.
kind regards

Ben
Well said, Ben.

Probably being born in the Sakya clan he already had some great merit, and would have literally been surrounded by some of the most sincere, dedicated and insightful practitioners of the Dhamma ever. Even a lax person would pick up something in such an environment (except maybe Dandapani!)

Most of us are not so fortunate!
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Ben »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Ben wrote:
suanck wrote:*
If I remember correctly, a guy (Sarakani) of the Sakyan clan was drunk most of the times. But at death, he became a Stream-Enterer (Samyutta Nikaya).

Suan.
Yes,but I wouldn't want to base my behaviour on Sarakani's example and I wouldn't recommend anyone else to follow Sarakani;s example either. Instead, I take the fifth precept and maintain it. When we take refuge in the Dhamma, we are also taking refuge in the three-fold training which includes virtue. And by maintaining the precepts, they give one a refuge that offers excellent protection and a firm foundation for the development of samadhi and panna. Not only do I know it through my understanding of the texts but also through direct experience.
kind regards

Ben
Well said, Ben.

Probably being born in the Sakya clan he already had some great merit, and would have literally been surrounded by some of the most sincere, dedicated and insightful practitioners of the Dhamma ever. Even a lax person would pick up something in such an environment (except maybe Dandapani!)

Most of us are not so fortunate!
Thank you Venerable!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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rowyourboat
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by rowyourboat »

You guys dont kid yourself. You need to keep the five precepts to get to any good stable place in the dhamma. Your mind will give you all the reasons why you should break some at some point- but just know that this is your defilements talking and don't kid yourself. If you cant even give up alcohol just in case it might be problematic, you wont progress very far in this dhamma. Your dedication to the dhamma is not enough. Your levels of letting go are not enough (samma sankappa- right intention- nekkhamma sankappa- intention to renounce/let go) to give rise to sila (that is the stepwise generation of the noble eightfold path as per the mahacattasarika sutta/MN). The reason for that is that the first step -Right View- is not 'Right' enough yet and there is little faith/saddha. Without good sila, there wont be any right livelihood (samma aajiva), again as per the stepwise progression of the noble eightfold path. If you job requires wine tasting and if that is more important than overcoming endless rounds of births and deaths you need to take a serious look at where you are in the path right now.

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by pilgrim »

I have no particular liking for alcohol, but lately I'm convinced that a little red wine once in a while is beneficial to health and intend to consume moderate amounts. I agree with Ajahn Khemasanto that there is nothing intrinsically evil about alcohol, - the point is not to let it affect your mind. After all many common foods, such as yoghurt, soy sauce, spaghetti sauce, mustard, etc contain alcohol and most buddhists have no issue consuming them.
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Ben »

Hi Pilgrim,
pilgrim wrote:I have no particular liking for alcohol, but lately I'm convinced that a little red wine once in a while is beneficial to health and intend to consume moderate amounts. I agree with Ajahn Khemasanto that there is nothing intrinsically evil about alcohol, - the point is not to let it affect your mind. After all many common foods, such as yoghurt, soy sauce, spaghetti sauce, mustard, etc contain alcohol and most buddhists have no issue consuming them.
The amount of alcohol that is in common foods like soy, pasta sauce and mustard (as examples) is that the volume is tiny and that the ethanol is quickly evaporated out when the food is heated. The boiling point for alcohol is 85degC. Alcohol in yoghurt? I haven't heard of that one.
I did see a report a few months ago which looked at the methodology and data collection of many of the studies in the last three or four decades which purported health benefits of drinking an alcoholic beverage, in particular, red-wine. The study authors concluded that there were signficant data reliability and bias issues which distorted findings in favour of alcoholic beverage consumption. Even if there were health benefits of drinking red wine, and I think the main health benefit is the anti-oxidents, there is no shortage of other bountiful sources of anti-oxidants such as green tea and certain berries.
Respectfully, I disagree with your assessment regarding drinking alcohol. There is no way to say that alcohol isn't affecting your mind. The problem with alcohol is that increases our delusion which affects our ability to be self-aware. And its pernicious. Drinking alcohol is also feeding our craving for the sensation we get from drinking it. And so long as you are doing that, you desensitize yourself and instead of being focused on dispassion and cessation, you become focused and fixated on sensual gratification.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
chownah
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by chownah »

Caffeine is not an addictive substance in that it does not change the body chemistry of most people so that its absence causes bad reactions....having said this I suppose it is possible for individuals to have bad reactions when their daily dosage of caffeine is disrupted.....it is probably best for theses people to say that caffeine is addictive for them.....for the huge vast majority of people in the world (yes, I"ve asked every one of them) caffeine is a mild stimulant and not addictive in any way....

There is such a thing as an addictive personality....being people whose personalities thend to lead them into habituation for various things....in fact there is evidence that personality is a major factor for narcotic addiction in that thousands of people every year take enough morphine and related drugs in hospital every year to become addicted but for the overwhelming majority of these people addiction is not a problem.

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Individual »

chownah wrote:Caffeine is not an addictive substance in that it does not change the body chemistry of most people so that its absence causes bad reactions....having said this I suppose it is possible for individuals to have bad reactions when their daily dosage of caffeine is disrupted.....it is probably best for theses people to say that caffeine is addictive for them.....for the huge vast majority of people in the world (yes, I"ve asked every one of them) caffeine is a mild stimulant and not addictive in any way....
Caffeine is addictive, although not to the same extent as other drugs, like nicotine.

If you only drink a cup of coffee a day, you might not experience it. But try drinking a 6-pack of red bull daily. You can experience irritability, which isn't as bad as nicotine withdrawal but similar. Also, you can end up where you're constantly tired and only have a normal energy level if you are constantly consuming caffeine. Caffeine is a stimulant: whether it's mild or extreme depends on the quantity consumed.

You ever had an "energy shot" (monster energy shot, red bull energy shot)? It's like those cans of energy drinks, except they concentrate the level of caffeine, so that just a few sips has the same caffeine content as an entire can (something like 100-150 mg). On the bottle, it typically has a warning to not combine with other caffeine products (that's how you know the heavy duty stuff -- if it has a warning "limit three cans per day". If it wasn't a risk to your health, of course they'd want you to suck down as many cans as possible).

Drinking it feels like a kick in the face.

Here is a picture of me after drinking one:

Image

If you drink enough caffeine, you can induce psychosis.

Anyway, I will say that I've noticed that consuming caffeine before strenuous exercise is a bit different (and more healthy) than people who guzzle coffee in an office setting.

Also, it greatly increases one-pointed mental focus at the expense of broad range mental abilities, like long-term memory.
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