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Modern Techniques? - Dhamma Wheel

Modern Techniques?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
SamKR
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Modern Techniques?

Postby SamKR » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:52 am

Nice to see four sub-forums on Theravada Meditation.
:twothumbsup:
But I was just wondering if Mahasi and Goenka methods are really modern techniques, or if the teachers in those traditions would say that they teach modern techniques.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:59 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:15 am

Great to see the changes.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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retrofuturist
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:37 am

Greetings,

Incorporating feedback from this topic and elsewhere, this forum has now been renamed from Meditation (Modern Techniques) to Meditation (Vipassana Techniques).

As mentioned, this is a work in progress, so if you think there's any tweaking required, please let us know.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Reductor
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby Reductor » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:40 am

Look at this. This was just the solution I that I was hoping for :smile:

SamKR
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby SamKR » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:55 am


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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:12 am

To a certain degree the Mahasi technique could be called an old technique with some modern additives.
Lord Buddha spoke of a walking meditation that uses 3 steps.Lifting-moving-putting.
Many Mahasi schools use 6 steps.Lifting heel-lifting-moving-lowering-touching-pressing and some use 18 steps
Intending to lift heel-lifting heel-knowing heel has been lifted,intending to raise etc.
I will leave Ben to discuss the Goenka style. :meditate:
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning

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Ben
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby Ben » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:00 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Sylvester
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:04 am

I wonder how many people would agree with Gethin here -

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... Gethin.pdf

when he says that the suttas actually give relatively sparse instructions compared to the later literature on how to get into samadhi. He thinks that the actual instructions were probably too important to be redacted and was best left to an oral transmission via the teacher-pupil relationship. He does feel that the Satipatthana Sutta is pivotal to what he calls the "Samannaphala" schema.

If his characterisation of the dearth of "how to" material in the Nikayas is cogent, then it probably means that there was no "closed" or "official" methodology to bhavana. That leaves open the possibility that techniques should not be assessed by their compliance with the Visudhimagga etc, but how nicely the technique fits into the "Samannaphala" scheme.

I hope the initial query is not going to lead to a reiteration of that famous 1966 debate between the Mahasi school and some Lankan monks on the "canonicity" of Mahasi vipassana.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:11 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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bodom
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby bodom » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:49 am

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Sylvester
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:58 am

I agree with your assessment.

I have to confess that having compared the Vsm to the suttas, the suttas do seem to miss a big chunk of the "how to". This perception is of course only relative and a closer examination of the suttas actually show that there are places where they do not shy from explicitly detailing what needs to be done to get to samadhi. Of course, my perception about the centrality of the satipatthanas to getting to samadhi is based on MN 44's dictum that the satipatthanas are the nimitta (basis/cause) of samadhi.

But I'm also not unsympathetic to Gethin suspecting that the suttas adopted a broad-brush approach to be filled in by a teacher personally. I get the nagging feeling that meditators are such a variegated lot, that it makes sense to redact the most common denominator, which a skilled teacher could then employ to flesh out the details.

Mettabhavana springs to mind as such an example. Beyond a link of the Third Vimokkha (Deliverance by being resolved on the Beautiful) to the Form Jhanas in the Mettasahagata Sutta (ie metta is the Beautiful Deliverance), there really isn't any meaty instruction in the suttas of how one starts mettabhavana and get into the Jhanas. It gets even more scanty when the same sutta mentions the Formless Attainments in relation to the other 3 brahmaviharas, and we are left wondering, how do I get from karunabhavana to the Attainment of Infinite Space?

The skill of a teacher who elects to teach outside of the Vsm scheme will probably be tested by whether he/she can see what was fundamentally important in the sutta instructions and tailoring another way to bridge point A to point B.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:58 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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bodom
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby bodom » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:26 am

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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retrofuturist
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:28 am

Greetings Bodom,

Ah, that's very likely where I originally obtained this perspective.

Nice detective work!

:spy:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:15 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:05 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:30 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:33 am

Thanks for the info, Mike.

:thumbsup:

As for Analayo, it would help to know if he was referring specifically to the Satipatthana Sutta, or perhaps some other sutta in the Sutta Pitaka, specifically addressing the subject of walking meditation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: Modern Techniques?

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:37 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..


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