Inconsistency about base coinciding with Citta and Cetasika?

[wouter_doorn]

Dear fellow abhidhamma students,

I was studying the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (bhikkhu bodhi's version) when I stumbled over what appears to be an inconsistency. It is probalby just a failure to understand things correctly on my side, so I hope one of you can clarify the issue.

It is about the base coinciding with citta and cetaskia.

In the abhidhammattha sangaha it is first stated that citta and cetasika have the same base (ekavatthuka, p.77). Yet in the chapter on the 12 sensbases (Āyatanānani) it is stated that citta coincide with the mind-base, while cetasika coincide with the mental-object base (p.287). The mind-base and mental-object base are not the same, but this would mean that the statement about ekavatthuka is false...

I hope somebody can enlighten me on this apperent contradiciton!

With metta,

Wouter

[wouter_doorn]

If no one here can help me, does anyone know another place where I could ask this question?

Metta,


Wouter

[mikenz66]

Hi Wouter,

I've been looking at the text but I'm having trouble understanding your statement:

Yet in the chapter on the 12 sensbases (Āyatanānani) it is stated that citta coincide with the mind-base, while cetasika coincide with the mental-object base (p.287). The mind-base and mental-object base are not the same, but this would mean that the statement about ekavatthuka is false...

Evidently we're all having trouble understanding....

I would note that what you are asking about is Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary, and he may well have made some slip. Noone is perfect...

A useful place to ask Abhihamma questions is this Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike

[lojong1]

What I see so far that might cause confusion is that for one English 'base' there are two Pali words--vatthu in ch.II.1, and aayatana in ch.VII.36.
I'm still looking...

[mikenz66]

What I see so far that might cause confusion is that for one English 'base' there are two Pali words--vatthu in ch.II.1, and aayatana in ch.VII.36.
I'm still looking...

Yes, that's a good point. I'm still having trouble figuring out the exact nature of the contradiction is that Wouter is concerned about. In the first page he references the point is that there are various cetasikas that arise and cease with a particular citta. I can't see how the second page contradicts that.

Mike

[lojong1]

Citta and cetasika are stationed respectively at the internal and external sides of the base-pair-sphere-aayatana-thingy, i.e at the maanaayatana-mind-base. and dhammaayatana-mental-object-base. When these two meet, they start a cognitive series (viithi) at the related vatthu-base. Vatthu-base is dvaara-door is pasaada-organ from different angles, and depending on what's happening with who's looking, I guess, or something.
Salayatana means 6-base, or 6-sphere, yet there are 12 items in the list. That's because they are 6 pairs--2 sides per 'base'. The mind base and mental contents base mentioned in the book are 2 sides of the same mind-sphere/base. Anyways however you look at it--same sphere/aayatana or same base/vatthu--there's no contradiction.
Smeg...

[lojong1]

Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhaultsci.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[wouter_doorn]

thanks for the replies!
I called it a contradiction because I couldn't find the right word . What I meant was more a point of confusion...
I guess both answeres are plausible, that the bases are two sides of the same coin, and that there might be a difference between vatthu and ayatana lost in translation.

Metta,

Wouter

[mikenz66]

Hi lojong1,

Citta and cetasika are stationed respectively at the internal and external sides of the base-pair-sphere-aayatana-thingy,...

I have no idea what this means. Can you please explain how you derive this statement from the Abhidhamma or the Abhidhammattha Sangaha texts?

Mike

[lojong1]

Hi lojong1,

Citta and cetasika are stationed respectively at the internal and external sides of the base-pair-sphere-aayatana-thingy,...

I have no idea what this means. Can you please explain how you derive this statement from the Abhidhamma or the Abhidhammattha Sangaha texts?

Mike

I hear you. I'll get to it?

[lojong1]

I'm still having trouble figuring out the exact nature of the contradiction is that Wouter is concerned about. In the first page he references the point is that there are various cetasikas that arise and cease with a particular citta. I can't see how the second page contradicts that.

It doesn't.
Citta and cetasika always (i)arise and (ii)cease together--these are two of the four points [translated] on p.77. Wouter was concerned with point (iv) below:
(Definition) "§ 1. Ekuppàda–nirodhà ca ekàlambana-vatthukà Cetoyuttà dvipa~n~nàsa dhammà cetasikà matà."
Cetasika is (i) that which arises (uppaada) together with consciousness (ceto), (ii) that which perishes (nirodhaa) together with it, (iii) that which has an identical object (aalambana) with it, (iv) that which has a common basis (vatthu) with it.
P.77: Common base (vatthu) for citta and cetasika, or...
p.287: Different bases (aayatana) for citta and cetasika. ("The mental-object base (dhammaayatana)...excludes...citta, which is identical with the mind-base (manaayatana).")

Vatthu p.144
'Cognitive series' = cognitive process = citta-viithi p.149
Aayatana p.286 and wiki's Aayatana

[lojong1]

Is there a way to get rid of [the translation's] point '(iv)' altogether? The noun 'vatthu' isn't there.

"Vatthuka (adj.) (--°) [fr. vatthu1] 1. having a site or foundation or ground, in ucca° (high) and nīca° (low) Vin II.117, 120; Mhvs 33, 87.
2. having its ground in, founded on, being of such & such a nature or composition S IV.67 (vācā°); Ps I.130 (micchādiṭṭhi°, correct in Index J.P.T.S. 1908!); Vbh 319 (uppanna°; +ārammaṇa), 392 (micchādiṭṭhi°); VbhA 403 (uppanna° etc.)."

Same manual p.135: "But mental object (Dhammaaramma.nam) is sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasika), Nibbaana, and concepts."
'Citta and cetasika share the nature of having (vatthukaa) one object and one arising-passing.' Although it may amount to practically the same thing, it does not say they share one base (vatthu).
Unless I'm wrong and it does, duh.

[mikenz66]

Is there a way to get rid of [the translation's] point '(iv)' altogether? The noun 'vatthu' isn't there.

My knowledge of Pali grammar is poor, but the first line talks about arising, ceasing, object, base, doesn't it?

Mike

[lojong1]

The first line talks about arising, ceasing, object, base, doesn't it?

"§ 1. Ekuppàda (one arising)–nirodhà([one]ceasing) ca ekàlambana (one object)-vatthukà (grounded in/sharing the nature of, as in dictionary 'vatthukaa--adj.') Cetoyuttà (associated with consciousness) dvipa~n~nàsa (52) dhammà cetasikà matà (p.p. of ma~n~nati = known as."

'Base' (the noun vatthu), is not there; the Pali itself is not separated into four characteristics of cetasika.

[lojong1]

Although it may amount to practically the same thing, it [Pali] does not say[here explicitly] they share one base (vatthu).

Narada Thera's Abhidhammatthasangaha p.98: "No consciousness exists apart from its concomitants. Both consciousness and its respective co-adjuncts arise and perish simultaneously. But there are some material qualities, such as Vi¤¤àtti Råpa31 (Modes of Intimation) that arise and perish simultaneously with the consciousness. To exclude them the third property of having a common object has been attributed. That which possesses these three characteristics must necessarily be endowed with the fourth—a common basis [only in physical realms]."

Bodhi's Manual p.77: "Finally, [only] in those realms in which the aggregate of material form is found, i.e. in the sensuous world and the fine-material world, the citta and its cetasikas have the same physical base, that is, they arise with the common support of either one of the material sense organs or the heart-base. This is the fourth characteristic of cetasikas."