Body v. Mind

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Spiny O'Norman
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Body v. Mind

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Looking at vipassana practice in the context of the four frames of reference, my approach to vipassana tends to focus on mind and mind-objects - but I get the impression that many people focus on body and sensations?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Spiny
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retrofuturist
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,

My thoughts are that they all fall under the banner of satipatthana, so one approach is neither right nor wrong.

That said, we had an interesting discussion about the sequencing of satipatthana steps and whether there was any logical or sequential aspect to the way they're sequenced in the Satipatthana Sutta but I can't see to find it at the moment.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Sanghamitta »

Bodily sensations are the starting point for many who practice Vipassana. But all of the kandhas arise together in accordance with kamma vipaka and are not separate.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Sanghamitta wrote:Bodily sensations are the starting point for many who practice Vipassana.
I'm sure you're right, but do you know why this is? It seems to me that mental objects are more immediately accessible?

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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Sanghamitta »

Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible. I think that the Buddha allowed for both those possibilities. He was teaching a wide cross section of people with different needs and temperaments.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,

Here we go, I found it...

Satipatthana sequencing
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=484" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Ben »

Sanghamitta wrote:Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible.
That's right Valerie. Their changing nature isn't so rapid as mental contents and their salient characteristics of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral are more easily observed as objective phenomena. Also, according to the Burmese insight traditions, the forward order of paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) can be interrupted between vedana (sensation) and tanha (craving).
It should also be pointed out that while a lot of people, particularly in my own tradition, start with vedananupassana (observation of sensation), as one progresses, one also engages in the other satipatthanas. Having trained in vedananupassana for many years I can say that it has been excellent training for the other satipatthanas.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Hoo
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Hoo »

Ben wrote: ...the forward order of paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) can be interrupted between vedana (sensation) and tanha (craving).
It should also be pointed out that while a lot of people, particularly in my own tradition, start with vedananupassana (observation of sensation), as one progresses, one also engages in the other satipatthanas. Having trained in vedananupassana for many years I can say that it has been excellent training for the other satipatthanas...
Thank you Ben for including the English with the Pali. :) That makes the post readable for me. I have no knowledge of Pali. I won't derail the post with my views on learning another language in order to understand and practice effectively. Suffice to say that I just don't read posts that include a lot of untranslated Pali. Maybe I'll put that in a different post someday. :)

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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Ben »

No problem Hoo!
Do you know about this dictionary: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ??
I find its an invaluable resource.
In future I'll try to be mindful and provide english translations of pali words I use.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Sanghamitta »

I can understand that to some degree Hoo. However as it frequently takes half a page of English to accurately translate a single term in Pali, many of us find it easier to learn a little Pali, the basic terms and concepts at least.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Spiny,

Here we go, I found it...

Satipatthana sequencing
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=484" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

Fascinating thread. I think I might be a "nervous introvert", in which case mental objects would make sense. :smile:

Spiny
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:

Fascinating thread. I couldn't decide whether I was "languid" or not though. :smile:

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Sanghamitta wrote:Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible. I think that the Buddha allowed for both those possibilities. He was teaching a wide cross section of people with different needs and temperaments.
Good point. While I do sometimes focus on just one of the four frames, I am mostly not exclusive and will notice whatever arises - so I'm aware of all the 4 frames in varying degrees. Maybe it's that there is more going on with mental objects so for me they seem easier to work with.

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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Hoo »

Ben wrote:... http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ?? ...
I find its an invaluable resource...
Thanks Ben :) I didn't have that link and it looks less cumbersome than the one I was using. I'll post my take on learning another language in another post. EDIT: I see there's been lots already posted on that topic so I think I'll let it be :) It's just my view anyway, and no one needs more views, IMHO.

Hoo
Last edited by Hoo on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

Come on Tilt.This could be laying down :zzz: meditation.Poor misunderstood bear.
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
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