Body v. Mind

[Spiny O'Norman]

Looking at vipassana practice in the context of the four frames of reference, my approach to vipassana tends to focus on mind and mind-objects - but I get the impression that many people focus on body and sensations?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Spiny

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Spiny,

My thoughts are that they all fall under the banner of satipatthana, so one approach is neither right nor wrong.

That said, we had an interesting discussion about the sequencing of satipatthana steps and whether there was any logical or sequential aspect to the way they're sequenced in the Satipatthana Sutta but I can't see to find it at the moment.

Metta,
Retro.

[Sanghamitta]

Bodily sensations are the starting point for many who practice Vipassana. But all of the kandhas arise together in accordance with kamma vipaka and are not separate.

[Spiny O'Norman]

Bodily sensations are the starting point for many who practice Vipassana.

I'm sure you're right, but do you know why this is? It seems to me that mental objects are more immediately accessible?

Spiny

[Sanghamitta]

Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible. I think that the Buddha allowed for both those possibilities. He was teaching a wide cross section of people with different needs and temperaments.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Spiny,

Here we go, I found it...

Satipatthana sequencing
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=484

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible.

That's right Valerie. Their changing nature isn't so rapid as mental contents and their salient characteristics of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral are more easily observed as objective phenomena. Also, according to the Burmese insight traditions, the forward order of paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) can be interrupted between vedana (sensation) and tanha (craving).
It should also be pointed out that while a lot of people, particularly in my own tradition, start with vedananupassana (observation of sensation), as one progresses, one also engages in the other satipatthanas. Having trained in vedananupassana for many years I can say that it has been excellent training for the other satipatthanas.
kind regards

Ben

[Hoo]

...the forward order of paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) can be interrupted between vedana (sensation) and tanha (craving).
It should also be pointed out that while a lot of people, particularly in my own tradition, start with vedananupassana (observation of sensation), as one progresses, one also engages in the other satipatthanas. Having trained in vedananupassana for many years I can say that it has been excellent training for the other satipatthanas...

Thank you Ben for including the English with the Pali. That makes the post readable for me. I have no knowledge of Pali. I won't derail the post with my views on learning another language in order to understand and practice effectively. Suffice to say that I just don't read posts that include a lot of untranslated Pali. Maybe I'll put that in a different post someday.

Hoo

[Ben]

No problem Hoo!
Do you know about this dictionary: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ ??
I find its an invaluable resource.
In future I'll try to be mindful and provide english translations of pali words I use.
kind regards

Ben

[Sanghamitta]

I can understand that to some degree Hoo. However as it frequently takes half a page of English to accurately translate a single term in Pali, many of us find it easier to learn a little Pali, the basic terms and concepts at least.

[Spiny O'Norman]

Greetings Spiny,

Here we go, I found it...

Satipatthana sequencing
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=484

Metta,
Retro.

Fascinating thread. I think I might be a "nervous introvert", in which case mental objects would make sense.

Spiny

[tiltbillings]

Fascinating thread. I couldn't decide whether I was "languid" or not though.

Spiny

Languid:

[Spiny O'Norman]

Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible. I think that the Buddha allowed for both those possibilities. He was teaching a wide cross section of people with different needs and temperaments.

Good point. While I do sometimes focus on just one of the four frames, I am mostly not exclusive and will notice whatever arises - so I'm aware of all the 4 frames in varying degrees. Maybe it's that there is more going on with mental objects so for me they seem easier to work with.

Spiny

[Hoo]

... http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ ?? ...
I find its an invaluable resource...

Thanks Ben I didn't have that link and it looks less cumbersome than the one I was using. I'll post my take on learning another language in another post. EDIT: I see there's been lots already posted on that topic so I think I'll let it be It's just my view anyway, and no one needs more views, IMHO.

Hoo

[Phra Chuntawongso]

Come on Tilt.This could be laying down meditation.Poor misunderstood bear.

[tiltbillings]

Come on Tilt.This could be laying down meditation.Poor misunderstood bear.

It is one of my favorite positions for meditation.

[Viscid]

The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought.

With a description like that, who the heck wants to admit to being languid?

I've got my languid days and I've got my 'nervous' days, perhaps I should be shifting my contemplation object accordingly?

[tiltbillings]

The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought.

With a description like that,

it is time to take a nap.The language of some of the translations is interesting.

[SamKR]

Looking at vipassana practice in the context of the four frames of reference, my approach to vipassana tends to focus on mind and mind-objects - but I get the impression that many people focus on body and sensations?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Spiny

I used to practice observation of sensations, and later tried to change to observing mind/mind-objects. But I returned to sensations, as I found observation of sensations was more powerful (in the sense that understanding of anicca and anatta is easier). Furthermore, we need not completely stop observing mind/mind-objects while doing vipassana of vedananupassana (observing sensations). Goenka ji teaches that immidiately after observing mind and mental content we should switch to observation of sensations associated with the mental state of that moment.
Moreover, observation of sensations necessarily includes observation of mind (as sensation is part of mental process). Isn't it?

[Ben]

Hi Sam,

I used to practice observation of sensations, and later tried to change to observing mind/mind-objects. But I returned to sensations, as I found observation of sensations was more powerful (in the sense that understanding of anicca and anatta is easier). Furthermore, we need not completely stop observing mind/mind-objects while doing vipassana of vedananupassana (observing sensations). Goenka ji teaches that soon after observing mind and mental content we should switch to observation of sensations associated with the mental state of that moment.

Indeed. For me, especially during retreat, when sati is good and stable and I'm observing sensation the mind begins to also begin to do those other satipatthanas.

Moreover, observation of sensations necessarily includes observation of mind. Isn't it?

I think so. According to Goenkaji, mental objects are accompanied with sensation. I remember him saying that all but four (arupa-jhana) cittas are accompanied by sensation.
This seems to be supported by my reading of Bodhi's edition of A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma.
kind regards

Ben