Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:This is the meditation forum not the debate forum. If I wanted to debate the issue I'd have posted this thread in the debate forum.
But your OP clearly is a debate from the very beginning.
I tried to make it as explicit as language would allow in the OP that I was not starting this thread to argue with anybody:
  • I’m well aware that this subject matter may not be of interest to some people. It’s posted here for those who are interested. For anyone who doesn’t find the contents of this thread informative or helpful, I respectfully and wholeheartedly agree that they would be better served to follow whatever interpretation of the dhammavinaya that they have faith in and find helpful. It runs counter to the intent of the dhamma for anyone who isn’t fully awakened to maintain definite conclusions that “Only this is true; anything else is worthless” (MN 95).
I read all sorts of threads and posts on DW that I don't necessarily agree with. But I try my best not to reply to threads unless I feel that I have something constructive to add to the discussion. It would be senseless for me or anyone else to chime in on a thread discussing the Burmese vipassanā method, for example, and derail the conversation by insisting that the Burmese vipassanā method is somehow wrong (which I don't believe to be the case BTW).

All the best,

Geoff
The problem is that jhana is a contenious subject. Firtst it was the jhana-wallah against the vipassana-noids, which it generally still is, but it has now gone to sutta jhana-wallah against the commentraial/VM jhana-wallahs. It is a contenious field.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:It is an open forum. Sylverster's $0.02 goes with the terrotory.
Yep, it's an open forum. And Sylvester has given me his 2 cents on numerous occasions. I have already replied in detail to each of his opinions in turn, giving him far more time than should have ever been required. Especially since during the course of those conversations his agenda became quite obvious.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is that jhana is a contenious subject.
It need not be.
tiltbillings wrote:Firtst it was the jhana-wallah against the vipassana-noids, which it generally still is, but it has now gone to sutta jhana-wallah against the commentraial/VM jhana-wallahs. It is a contenious field.
I'm more than happy to let every individual follow whatever meditation instructions they find helpful and have faith in. In fact, I think it's outstanding whenever anyone decides to take up any sitting practice.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ñāṇa, all,
Ñāṇa wrote:I'm more than happy to let every individual follow whatever meditation instructions they find helpful and have faith in. In fact, I think it's outstanding whenever anyone decides to take up any sitting practice.
:thumbsup:

I do hope this topic can get back on track in the sense of addressing "Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas" as this is something that I find to be a very interesting topic.

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This may be of interest:

The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas - Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi

For full article, please click on link at foot of post.

This extract is Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Conclusions and an Afterthought

EXTRACT:
Our study has led us to the following conclusions regarding the relationship between lay noble disciples and the jhānas.
(1) Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment.
None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhānas.
Though some suttas include the jhānas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikāyas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhāna arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhānas.

(2) All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhānas.
This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhāna before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhānas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship.
If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhānas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature.
This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhānas in the preliminary phase of their practice.

(3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhānas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhānic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment.

(4) Several non-returners in the Nikāyas claim to possess all four jhānas, and according to the Mahāmāluṅkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhāna is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non-returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhāna as a basis for developing insight.
Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhānas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds.

(5) As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the main obstacles to jhānic attainment, they should face no major problems in entering the jhānas. The non-returner is similar to the ordinary jhāna-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the sensuous realm.

(6) Although in the Nikāyas the tie between the two attainments -- the jhānas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding.
Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhānas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhānas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhānas.
*
The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhāna at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the Nikāyas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhāna in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts.
The famous Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhānas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhānas.[40]
Thus this opens the question whether the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhānas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper.
-ooOoo-
http://www.viet.net/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Vepacitta »

Thanks Cooran for the piece from Ven. Bodhi.

And many thanks to Nana for this interesting thread and the exposition on Jhana.

And thanks to Retro for his gentle suggestion to get this (very valuable) thread :focus: There is a gold mine here for discussion and explanation - not debate! Is this a forum to discuss Theravadin Buddhism or is it a debate forum?

Personally, I'd like to get into 'how does it work - that you can be concentrated - and yet still think - even though non-discoursive? Is it during the jhana - right after emergence - a bit of both?

What exactly is meant by bodily pleasure - is it the oddball buzzing you get in the head chakras sometimes? Is it truly a lack of pain?

What about what is known as access concentration - how does that relate?

I mean - there's a thousand and one picky (and maybe silly but they need to be cleared up) questions -and - from my view (yes - view) that would be great to discuss - "whadd'ya think, huh?" "reallly - you sure? but what about where it says ..." and not worry about getting flamed for Chrissakes.

(Where's my pet Naga Binky when I need him? :x )

V.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Hoo »

Thanks Chris,

That info and link are exactly what I've been looking for.

Hoo
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

Hi all,

I would like to thank the DW members for the PMs and e-mails yesterday.

And thanks Chris, for posting the excerpt from Ven. Bodhi and the link.

Also thanks go out to Retro and Vepacitta for suggesting that it would be good to discuss some of the practical aspects of the teachings. There is a traditional standard of Buddhist etiquette -- common to all Buddhist traditions -- of not publicly discussing in detail what are considered to be personal matters regarding practice better kept between one's teacher and oneself. This traditional etiquette is actually grounded in quite pragmatic concerns. Nevertheless, it may be helpful to have a more open discussion about sitting practice. I look forward to reading all replies, and will try to share what I've found helpful (and also not so helpful) for my own practice over the years.

It might be worth mentioning again that there are basically three approaches to mental development in the context of meditation:
  • (i) attention training where one absorbs into a single object and thereby stills all mental factors to the point where, as Ajahn Brahmavamso explains, “Consciousness is so focused on the one thing that the faculty of comprehension is suspended … there is no comprehension of what is going on.”

    (ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, “It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own.”

    (iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).
With this in mind, it's really a matter of what each of us has tried and found helpful for our own practice. All three of these approaches can be developed to the point of attaining the resultant state of that approach if one has the time and commitment to follow their chosen path of practice in a sustained, dedicated way.

It is only with the first of these three approaches that the five senses must necessarily be shut down and ceased for that resultant state to be entered and sustained. However, the lack of comprehension in this state makes it impossible for vipassanā to occur while abiding therein.

The resultant state of the second approach allows for the mind to be internally unified while still fully comprehending the mental factors present. Thus vipassanā can be fully present and functional while abiding therein. I consider the resultant meditative state of this second approach to represent an accurate assessment of jhāna as it's presented in the suttas. Other people consider the resultant state of the first approach to be necessary. It's not my intention to debate this issue here. Obviously, everyone is free to make up their own mind regarding what they feel is necessary for their practice.

The third approach can eventually lead to the resultant state of the second approach, but it isn’t a direct pathway to that state of mental unification. The level of concentration employed in this third approach is often designated as "momentary concentration." This approach can be applied as somewhat of a conjoined calm (samatha) and vipassanā method. By using the instruction to follow the movement of the abdomen as one breathes and to come back to that as the support object after any distractions, this approach enables many practitioners to develop deep samatha in the course of their practice. Thus this approach can certainly lead to jhāna. This is entirely in keeping with what is outlined in the suttas.

I look forward to hearing what other members have to contribute to this discussion.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Geoff,

My opportunities to meditate tend to be limited, and at best I manage to find maybe 45 minutes in a block to meditate. Of the 16 steps depicted in the Anapanasati Sutta...
"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'
I endeavour to get up to Stage 4 or so, and then leap frog across to Stage 13. I'd like to go the full way through the other steps, but it usually takes me about 20-30 minutes of focusing of the breath, before I'm sufficiently attuned to being sensitive to the entire body. I should point out here that I take the sutta here literally in terms of referring to 'the body' and don't understand it as 'breath body', despite the recommendations of the commentarial literature. The reason I leap frog to Stage 13, is so that I allow the mind (which is as finely tuned as it's going to get in such a humble session) to at least go to work observing the characteristics of aniccata. Whilst samatha alone may be fun, I think vipassana as taught by the Buddha is the reason for practicing samatha in the Buddhadhamma... it's not simply samatha for samatha sake. If that's all it was, it wouldn't have taken the Buddha to work that out. I'd rather not waste what mental unity I have attained in such a session, as humble as it might be.

Alas, in the evenings I'm too tired to meditate effectively and I just get drowsy. I'm at my best late morning or lunchtime... and this is true both in a retreat environment and in daily life.

As for "publicly discussing in detail what are considered to be personal matters regarding practice better kept between one's teacher and oneself", that won't be a problem. My teacher attained parinibbana 2500 or so years ago.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Modus.Ponens »

I'll post what my limited experience is with meditation. This reffers to the practice I used to do. Now I do metta bhavana.

I found helpfull to folow the first steps in the anapanasati sutta. I started with just being mindfull of the breath sensation in the nostrils to settle the mind (directed thought). Then I would move to breathing evaluating if the breath was long or short (evaluation). Then I would breathe sensitive to the entire body in order to prepare for the next step. Then I would calm the entire (and this is where the previous step becomes important) body producing rapture. I never got further than this. But I think this demonstrates an important principle: that the first 12 steps in the anapanasati sutta are meant to be a gradual progression through the jhanas (preparing, producing or strenghtning the apropriate jhana factor).

Has anyone here found this 12 steps interpretation to be true?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Geoff

Thank you- I appreciate your efforts.

I would like to share my personal opinion and experience on vitakka vicara:

"But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?"
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought (vitakka) & evaluation (vicara) are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." - MN44

When one practices mastery of jhana it is possible to absorb into these factors individually to see what they are. It is very difficult (other than piti, sukha and samadhi) to distinguish out vitakka vicara while they were mixed in together with the rest of the jhana factors. Experientially of vitakka vicara was more in line with what the above sutta said. Vitakka and vicara was more to do with verbal thought. ie it is not verbal though itself but to do with a fabrication, a preverbal mental 'movement' which was present in the first jhana. The feel of Vitakka was like a a racer perched on his starting blocks, while vicara was more like a brook lazily bubbling in this direction and that ready to explore.

Subsequently I have not found it necessary to look beyond this experience and this sutta to explain what it is.

with metta

RYB
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Reductor »

Hey there Retro,

In my humble opinion you're putting the cart before the horse here when you try to go from 4 to 13. The reason I think so is that, in the process of overcoming hindrances in the first four steps you will learn a great deal about your mind, and about inconsistency. You need not run off prematurely to another exercise in order to observe this, as anicca is evident from the earliest stages to the last.

If you focus on those first four, looking for ways to overcome this hindrance or that, then you will eventually overcome them. When you do, you allow yourself a mental 'pat on the back', and feel good about your accomplishment. This can lead nicely into joy which, when attended to along with steady focus on the breath, becomes stronger. The whole experience becomes very pleasant, and you can relax into it.

Now, you say that you don't get much time to meditate so you try to get the important work done. That is a trouble I can appreciate. But I don't think that focusing on samatha is a waste, nor do I think you would be commended by the teacher for trying to jump over the intermediate steps. If you practice all the steps in order each time you meditate, then you will become more adept at them. So what might initially take 40 minutes will eventually take 20, or even 10-15. Then you will have a pleasant practice, the mere thought of which makes you want to go and sit.

You will also be in a much better place to observe anicca, but on a more subtle level than just that you get while contending with the arising and passing away of the hindrances. And no, I seldom sit more than 40 to 50 minutes.

So seriously, don't go putting the cart before the horse. :soap:
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Reductor »

And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing.
MN 2
At such times, monks, as the mind is sluggish, that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor[1] of tranquillity, the enlightenment-factor of concentration, the enlightenment-factor of equanimity. What is the reason? A sluggish mind is hard to arouse by these factors.

...

"But, monks, when the mind is sluggish, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor of investigation-of-states, the enlightenment-factor of energy, the enlightenment-factor of rapture.[2] What is the reason? A sluggish mind is easy to arouse by these factors.

...

"Monks, when the mind is agitated,[3] that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of investigation-of-states, of energy, of rapture. Why? An agitated mind is hard to calm through these factors.

...

"When the mind is agitated, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. Why? Because an agitated mind is easy to calm[4] through these factors.
...

"But as for mindfulness, monks, I declare that it is always useful."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is surprising to me how often we talk meditation without talking the seven factors. I wonder why that is, as I have found contemplation on the seven factors to be immensely useful to me at all points in my practice.

I'll give an example from my own practice: suppose I sit down and find that I'm restless. The first thing I do is relax a little bit, listen to the sounds of my room, or look at the Buddha rupa. Then I take up my object and really focus on it, without much concern for how comfortable my focus (concentration). I do this in order to drive a little 'wedge' into my run away thought process. So, after a few minutes I back off on that intense concentration and observe that my mind can now relax somewhat with the object without running off to those other thoughts. I notice that my mind is then more peaceful than before (ie, a still mind is better than a busy one), so I focus on the sense of peacefulness connected with my object (tranquility). As I do that for a while the last concerns for my previous line of though falls away. Then I turn my attention to the specific qualities of my object and begin to analyze it in anyway that seems appropriate.. in the case of breath mediation I will sometimes analyze the length, if that property is clear and smooth. Or, if the breath is rough I watch it and observe the bumps and hitches that might occur. This is 'investigation-of-states'. By taking up this analysis I prevent that tranquility from turning into mental dullness and sloth. As I analyze the breaths features this opens a nice little door way into experiencing the larger body, as the breath affects the body quite substantially.

As I analyze my object there becomes a sense of momentum, of energy. True, this energy was also present in my initial concentration, but now it seems qualitatively different. Since my mind is nicely balanced it becomes pretty easy to enjoy the experience and reflect on the change that has occurred in my mind. This usually yields a significant sense of joy and satisfaction to me (rapture).

In order to do all these things I need mindfulness and equanimity. That is, I have to recognize that all things come about by cause and effect, not by hope and craving. Second, I have to recall the purpose of balancing my mind: clarity of vision. The pleasure and such is a part or it, but not the goal. But as the meditation deepens this equanimity becomes more all encompassing, to the point that the bodily experience changes into a sense of singular 'present' and 'calm'.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Sobeh »

That's the Sutta that made me want to read the Samyutta Nikaya.

:heart:
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by bodom »

In my humble opinion you're putting the cart before the horse here when you try to go from 4 to 13.


Buddhadasa actually recommended this way of practice as 'The Short Cut Method for Ordinary People'.
The essence of this method is to concentrate the mind adequately, just enough, which any ordinary person can do, and then take that concentrated citta to observe aniccam-dukkham-anatta - the three characteristics of being - until realizing sunyata and tathata...They will get the full-scale result of extinguishing dukkha,...So make the mind sufficiently concentrated, then go examine aniccam-dukkham-anatta. Just practice the first tetrad of Anapanasati sufficiently then practice the fourth tetrad sufficiently. That is all! Sufficient is not a lot, nor is it complete, but it is good enough. This is the short cut for ordinary people.


http://buddhasociety.com/online-books/a ... ikkhu-1-11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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