Nice to see four sub-forums on Theravada Meditation.
But I was just wondering if Mahasi and Goenka methods are really modern techniques, or if the teachers in those traditions would say that they teach modern techniques.
Modern Techniques?
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Modern Techniques?
Greetings Sam,
I'd welcome other opinions however, as such discussion may help shape how the Meditation section looks.
Metta,
Retro.
It's a bit of a working prototype at the moment - subject to change and subject to potential dissolution back to one forum... a true working model of anicca. We'll see how it goes.Nice to see four sub-forums on Theravada Meditation.
By my logic, if the Buddha hadn't heard of them, and Buddhaghosa hadn't heard of them, then they would constitute "modern". Which, of course, isn't to say they conflict with meditation methods found in the suttas or in the commentaries per se, but if they need a modern name to define the practice and the techniques introduced, then it's a modern technique.But I was just wondering if Mahasi and Goenka methods are really modern techniques, or if the teachers in those traditions would say that they teach modern techniques.
I'd welcome other opinions however, as such discussion may help shape how the Meditation section looks.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- Modus.Ponens
- Posts: 3854
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
- Location: Gallifrey
Re: Modern Techniques?
Great to see the changes.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Modern Techniques?
Greetings,
Incorporating feedback from this topic and elsewhere, this forum has now been renamed from Meditation (Modern Techniques) to Meditation (Vipassana Techniques).
As mentioned, this is a work in progress, so if you think there's any tweaking required, please let us know.
Metta,
Retro.
Incorporating feedback from this topic and elsewhere, this forum has now been renamed from Meditation (Modern Techniques) to Meditation (Vipassana Techniques).
As mentioned, this is a work in progress, so if you think there's any tweaking required, please let us know.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Modern Techniques?
Look at this. This was just the solution I that I was hoping for
Re: Modern Techniques?
Thanks retro. It sounds better to me.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Incorporating feedback from this topic and elsewhere, this forum has now been renamed from Meditation (Modern Techniques) to Meditation (Vipassana Techniques).
As mentioned, this is a work in progress, so if you think there's any tweaking required, please let us know.
Metta,
Retro.
- Phra Chuntawongso
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
- Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai
- Contact:
Re: Modern Techniques?
To a certain degree the Mahasi technique could be called an old technique with some modern additives.
Lord Buddha spoke of a walking meditation that uses 3 steps.Lifting-moving-putting.
Many Mahasi schools use 6 steps.Lifting heel-lifting-moving-lowering-touching-pressing and some use 18 steps
Intending to lift heel-lifting heel-knowing heel has been lifted,intending to raise etc.
I will leave Ben to discuss the Goenka style.
With metta
Lord Buddha spoke of a walking meditation that uses 3 steps.Lifting-moving-putting.
Many Mahasi schools use 6 steps.Lifting heel-lifting-moving-lowering-touching-pressing and some use 18 steps
Intending to lift heel-lifting heel-knowing heel has been lifted,intending to raise etc.
I will leave Ben to discuss the Goenka style.
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
Re: Modern Techniques?
Thanks Nanadhaja.Nanadhaja wrote:I will leave Ben to discuss the Goenka style.
With metta
I have already given feedback to the structure of the meditation forum and potential classification issues within DW's administration forum. Having already said my piece, I was wishing to stand back so that you and our other members can have an opportunity to contribute.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Modern Techniques?
I wonder how many people would agree with Gethin here -
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... Gethin.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
when he says that the suttas actually give relatively sparse instructions compared to the later literature on how to get into samadhi. He thinks that the actual instructions were probably too important to be redacted and was best left to an oral transmission via the teacher-pupil relationship. He does feel that the Satipatthana Sutta is pivotal to what he calls the "Samannaphala" schema.
If his characterisation of the dearth of "how to" material in the Nikayas is cogent, then it probably means that there was no "closed" or "official" methodology to bhavana. That leaves open the possibility that techniques should not be assessed by their compliance with the Visudhimagga etc, but how nicely the technique fits into the "Samannaphala" scheme.
I hope the initial query is not going to lead to a reiteration of that famous 1966 debate between the Mahasi school and some Lankan monks on the "canonicity" of Mahasi vipassana.
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... Gethin.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
when he says that the suttas actually give relatively sparse instructions compared to the later literature on how to get into samadhi. He thinks that the actual instructions were probably too important to be redacted and was best left to an oral transmission via the teacher-pupil relationship. He does feel that the Satipatthana Sutta is pivotal to what he calls the "Samannaphala" schema.
If his characterisation of the dearth of "how to" material in the Nikayas is cogent, then it probably means that there was no "closed" or "official" methodology to bhavana. That leaves open the possibility that techniques should not be assessed by their compliance with the Visudhimagga etc, but how nicely the technique fits into the "Samannaphala" scheme.
I hope the initial query is not going to lead to a reiteration of that famous 1966 debate between the Mahasi school and some Lankan monks on the "canonicity" of Mahasi vipassana.
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Modern Techniques?
Greetings Sylvester,
Metta,
Retro.
Whether one accepts or rejects this assumption seems quite significant in terms of where one actually ends up. It's quite central and pivotal to the whole matter.Sylvester wrote:He thinks that the actual instructions were probably too important to be redacted and was best left to an oral transmission via the teacher-pupil relationship.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Modern Techniques?
Hi Nanadhaja
Do you have the source?
Lord Buddha spoke of a walking meditation that uses 3 steps.Lifting-moving-putting.
Do you have the source?
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Modern Techniques?
I agree with your assessment.
I have to confess that having compared the Vsm to the suttas, the suttas do seem to miss a big chunk of the "how to". This perception is of course only relative and a closer examination of the suttas actually show that there are places where they do not shy from explicitly detailing what needs to be done to get to samadhi. Of course, my perception about the centrality of the satipatthanas to getting to samadhi is based on MN 44's dictum that the satipatthanas are the nimitta (basis/cause) of samadhi.
But I'm also not unsympathetic to Gethin suspecting that the suttas adopted a broad-brush approach to be filled in by a teacher personally. I get the nagging feeling that meditators are such a variegated lot, that it makes sense to redact the most common denominator, which a skilled teacher could then employ to flesh out the details.
Mettabhavana springs to mind as such an example. Beyond a link of the Third Vimokkha (Deliverance by being resolved on the Beautiful) to the Form Jhanas in the Mettasahagata Sutta (ie metta is the Beautiful Deliverance), there really isn't any meaty instruction in the suttas of how one starts mettabhavana and get into the Jhanas. It gets even more scanty when the same sutta mentions the Formless Attainments in relation to the other 3 brahmaviharas, and we are left wondering, how do I get from karunabhavana to the Attainment of Infinite Space?
The skill of a teacher who elects to teach outside of the Vsm scheme will probably be tested by whether he/she can see what was fundamentally important in the sutta instructions and tailoring another way to bridge point A to point B.
I have to confess that having compared the Vsm to the suttas, the suttas do seem to miss a big chunk of the "how to". This perception is of course only relative and a closer examination of the suttas actually show that there are places where they do not shy from explicitly detailing what needs to be done to get to samadhi. Of course, my perception about the centrality of the satipatthanas to getting to samadhi is based on MN 44's dictum that the satipatthanas are the nimitta (basis/cause) of samadhi.
But I'm also not unsympathetic to Gethin suspecting that the suttas adopted a broad-brush approach to be filled in by a teacher personally. I get the nagging feeling that meditators are such a variegated lot, that it makes sense to redact the most common denominator, which a skilled teacher could then employ to flesh out the details.
Mettabhavana springs to mind as such an example. Beyond a link of the Third Vimokkha (Deliverance by being resolved on the Beautiful) to the Form Jhanas in the Mettasahagata Sutta (ie metta is the Beautiful Deliverance), there really isn't any meaty instruction in the suttas of how one starts mettabhavana and get into the Jhanas. It gets even more scanty when the same sutta mentions the Formless Attainments in relation to the other 3 brahmaviharas, and we are left wondering, how do I get from karunabhavana to the Attainment of Infinite Space?
The skill of a teacher who elects to teach outside of the Vsm scheme will probably be tested by whether he/she can see what was fundamentally important in the sutta instructions and tailoring another way to bridge point A to point B.
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Modern Techniques?
Greetings Bodom,
Metta,
Retro.
That's a very good question. I actually recall that in the suttas, walking meditation is simply another posture in which to undertake satipatthana (i.e. "mindfulness with walking"), rather than the more prescripive "mindfulness of walking" that we see prescribed nowadays. Apologies I'm unable to verify that with a direct quotation - I wouldn't know where to start looking.bodom wrote:Do you have the source?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Modern Techniques?
Hi Retro
I have looked and have never found any explicit instruction for walking meditation.
This is from Analayo's Satipatthana commentary...
This is the standard instruction found in the suttas...
I have looked and have never found any explicit instruction for walking meditation.
This is from Analayo's Satipatthana commentary...
Unlike the way in which walking meditation is practiced nowadays, the standard instructions for walking meditation found in the discourses take mental events as their main observation. The instructions in this context do not mention awareness of one's bodily posture or of the dynamics of walking, but speak of purifying the mind from obstructive states.- pg 140
This is the standard instruction found in the suttas...
Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, we will purify our minds...
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Modern Techniques?
Greetings Bodom,
Ah, that's very likely where I originally obtained this perspective.
Nice detective work!
Metta,
Retro.
Ah, that's very likely where I originally obtained this perspective.
Nice detective work!
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."