Modern Techniques?

[mikenz66]

I don't understand the comment about mental events, and lack of instructions for being mindful of what the body is doing. It seems to me to be quite clear in the Suttas.

In the Body section of the Satipatthana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; we have detailed instructions for discerning exactly how one is breathing:

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'

So, one should be mindful of the nature of the breath (long and short seem to me to be just some of the things that could be noticed).

And it seems obvious to me that this extends on to the other instructions, where even less detail is given. Surely this passage is talking about the walking itself, not the mind states (since this is in the body section):

"Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it.

And so on for eating, urinating, and so on.

And then the elements, including wind element (motion), of the body:

"Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'

So one should notice hardness (earth), heat (fire), motion (wind) and cohesion (water) in the body.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

I don't understand the comment about mental events, and lack of instructions for being mindful of what the body is doing.

I don't see what this is in connection to. All I saw were comments suggesting that the lifting, moving forward, and placing of the feet (whether in 3-step, 6-step or any other classificatory scheme) which is explicitly emhasised in prescriptive vipassana instruction is not explicitly found in such form in the suttas... or even to the best of my knowledge, in the ancient commentaries. The act of making it an explicit teaching instruction by modern vipassana teachers, makes it a "modern technique" (not inconsistent with the suttas).

As you skilfully point out, there are plenty of explicit instructions about being mindful of what the body is doing, in whatever posture the body may be.

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

I was responding to:

This is from Analayo's Satipatthana commentary...

Unlike the way in which walking meditation is practiced nowadays, the standard instructions for walking meditation found in the discourses take mental events as their main observation. The instructions in this context do not mention awareness of one's bodily posture or of the dynamics of walking, but speak of purifying the mind from obstructive states.- pg 140

Which seems inconsistent with what I quoted from the Satipatthana Sutta.

My interpretation of what I quoted was "be mindful of all of what is going on in the body".

Which is all the "modern" instructions are. Whether you call that "adding something" is a matter of taste. I don't see it as an "addition", just a "suggestion for how to get started". After a time on retreat one just notices everything, as in the Sutta.

[The six phases suggestion is in the Visuddhimagga, by the way.]

Mike

[retrofuturist]

Thanks for the info, Mike.



As for Analayo, it would help to know if he was referring specifically to the Satipatthana Sutta, or perhaps some other sutta in the Sutta Pitaka, specifically addressing the subject of walking meditation.

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

Hi Retro,

As for Analayo, it would help to know if he was referring specifically to the Satipatthana Sutta, or perhaps some other sutta in the Sutta Pitaka, specifically addressing the subject of walking meditation.

Metta,
Retro.

I would say it was with respect to the Satipatthana. My copy of Analayo's landmark work is at home, but I should be able to confirm when I get home later on this afternoon/early evening/
kind regards

Ben

[Phra Chuntawongso]

Hi all.I must apologise for my mistake in saying it was in the suttas.
Gotta stop posting late at night.
You are quite right Bodom,The suttas only have Lord Buddha instructing the bhikus to note sitting as sitting as sitting,walking as walking etc.
I actually meant to say some of the earlier commentaries expounded the idea of noting the whole movement of the foot,such as lifting,moving putting.I think Bhuddaghosa for instance.
Again please accept my apology and next time I post I will try to be a little more awake

[Freawaru]

I wonder how many people would agree with Gethin here -

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... Gethin.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

when he says that the suttas actually give relatively sparse instructions compared to the later literature on how to get into samadhi.

I think that the terms (forest, mountain, open air, deserted house, ...) already describe inner states rather than external places. Bhikkhu Buddhadasa names in "Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree, page 67) "forest" (arannasanna) as a state preceding the arupa jhanas.

Some of these secluded spots are also found in non-Buddhist traditions - think of "Moses on mount Sinai", the "sermon on the mount", in the Bible for example. Or the "root of a tree" in Shamanic traditions. They describe inner places (states) of seclusion and as such are the ground on which the mindfulness meditation can be done. We have to remember that there was no Buddhism at the time of the Buddha, so he had to build his teachings on the ground of meditation practice of all the other traditions around.

So I think the actual suttic instruction is: bhikkhu, enter one of the secluded states you know from your previous meditation practice of whatever tradition you have been taught in and THEN start with satipatthana as the Buddha teaches.

And seriously, that is all the instruction one needs.

[bodom]

As for Analayo, it would help to know if he was referring specifically to the Satipatthana Sutta, or perhaps some other sutta in the Sutta Pitaka, specifically addressing the subject of walking meditation.

Analayo was referring to the 'stock' description found throughout the discourses, giving as source the following from MN:

Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, we will purify our minds...

[mikenz66]

Hi Bodom,

Yes, I looked at the book and that's where he seems to be coming from. It's strange that in making that statement he appears to be overlooking the passages that I quoted above: http://dhammawheel.com/posting.php?mode ... 90#pr90324. He also seems to interpret contemplation of the elements as an extension of contemplation of the body parts, rather than in terms of discerning the heaviness, movement, etc, of the body, which is now my teachers explain elements. Of course, as you know, the Mahasi school would say that contemplating motion of the feet, abdomen, or whatever, is (when sufficiently developed) contemplation of the elements.

I guess this shows that there are many ways of interpreting the instructions in the Suttas.

Mike