Body v. Mind

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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tiltbillings
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Nanadhaja wrote:Come on Tilt.This could be laying down :zzz: meditation.Poor misunderstood bear.
It is one of my favorite positions for meditation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Viscid
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Viscid »

The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought.
With a description like that, who the heck wants to admit to being languid?

I've got my languid days and I've got my 'nervous' days, perhaps I should be shifting my contemplation object accordingly?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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tiltbillings
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought.
With a description like that,
it is time to take a nap.The language of some of the translations is interesting.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SamKR
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by SamKR »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Looking at vipassana practice in the context of the four frames of reference, my approach to vipassana tends to focus on mind and mind-objects - but I get the impression that many people focus on body and sensations?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Spiny
I used to practice observation of sensations, and later tried to change to observing mind/mind-objects. But I returned to sensations, as I found observation of sensations was more powerful (in the sense that understanding of anicca and anatta is easier). Furthermore, we need not completely stop observing mind/mind-objects while doing vipassana of vedananupassana (observing sensations). Goenka ji teaches that immidiately after observing mind and mental content we should switch to observation of sensations associated with the mental state of that moment.
Moreover, observation of sensations necessarily includes observation of mind (as sensation is part of mental process). Isn't it?
Last edited by SamKR on Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Ben »

Hi Sam,
SamKR wrote:
I used to practice observation of sensations, and later tried to change to observing mind/mind-objects. But I returned to sensations, as I found observation of sensations was more powerful (in the sense that understanding of anicca and anatta is easier). Furthermore, we need not completely stop observing mind/mind-objects while doing vipassana of vedananupassana (observing sensations). Goenka ji teaches that soon after observing mind and mental content we should switch to observation of sensations associated with the mental state of that moment.
Indeed. For me, especially during retreat, when sati is good and stable and I'm observing sensation the mind begins to also begin to do those other satipatthanas.
SamKR wrote:Moreover, observation of sensations necessarily includes observation of mind. Isn't it?
I think so. According to Goenkaji, mental objects are accompanied with sensation. I remember him saying that all but four (arupa-jhana) cittas are accompanied by sensation.
This seems to be supported by my reading of Bodhi's edition of A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

SamKR wrote:Moreover, observation of sensations necessarily includes observation of mind (as sensation is part of mental process). Isn't it?
I guess there is sensation accompanied by a mental "reaction" to it?

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Viscid wrote:
The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought.
With a description like that, who the heck wants to admit to being languid?
I think I might be languidly nervous... :lol:

Spiny
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Ben
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Ben »

Ben wrote:Hi Sam,
SamKR wrote:
I used to practice observation of sensations, and later tried to change to observing mind/mind-objects. But I returned to sensations, as I found observation of sensations was more powerful (in the sense that understanding of anicca and anatta is easier). Furthermore, we need not completely stop observing mind/mind-objects while doing vipassana of vedananupassana (observing sensations). Goenka ji teaches that soon after observing mind and mental content we should switch to observation of sensations associated with the mental state of that moment.
Indeed. For me, especially during retreat, when sati is good and stable and I'm observing sensation the mind begins to also begin to do those other satipatthanas.
in fact, here is something from Ven Analayo on this subject:
Several discourses relate the practice of a single satipatthana directly to realization. Similarly, the commentaries assign to each single satipatthana meditation the capacity to lead to full awakening. This may very well be why a high percentage of present-day meditation teachers focus on the use of a single meditation technique, on the ground that a single-minded and thorough perfection of one meditation technique can cover all aspects of satipatthana, and thus be sufficient to gain realization.
Indeed, the development of awareness with any particular meditation technique will automatically result in a marked increase in one's general level of awareness, therby enhancing one's capacity to be mindful in regard to situations that do not form part of one's primary object of meditation. In this way, even those aspects of satipatthana that have not deliberately been made the object of contemplation to some extent still receive mindful attention as a by-product of the primary practice.
-- Ven Analayo, (2003), Satipatthana: the direct path to realization, Windhorse, Cambridge UK, p22
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Ben wrote: in fact, here is something from Ven Analayo on this subject:
Several discourses relate the practice of a single satipatthana directly to realization. Similarly, the commentaries assign to each single satipatthana meditation the capacity to lead to full awakening. This may very well be why a high percentage of present-day meditation teachers focus on the use of a single meditation technique, on the ground that a single-minded and thorough perfection of one meditation technique can cover all aspects of satipatthana, and thus be sufficient to gain realization.
Indeed, the development of awareness with any particular meditation technique will automatically result in a marked increase in one's general level of awareness, therby enhancing one's capacity to be mindful in regard to situations that do not form part of one's primary object of meditation. In this way, even those aspects of satipatthana that have not deliberately been made the object of contemplation to some extent still receive mindful attention as a by-product of the primary practice.
-- Ven Analayo, (2003), Satipatthana: the direct path to realization, Windhorse, Cambridge UK, p22
kind regards

Ben
Perhaps it it's also that "global" mindfulness ( of all 4 frames ) is actually very difficult to sustain, so we focus on a primary object to develop samadhi?

Spiny
rowyourboat
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by rowyourboat »

There is a sutta in satipatthana samyutta when Ven Anuruddha mention that a trainee is someone who has not practised all of the four foundations of mindfulness while an arahanth is someone who has completed the four foundaitons of mindfulness. In the same samyutta there is another sutta where it is said that like a pile of sand on the cross roads gets scattered thoroughly by carts coming from all 4 directions (compared to one), doing all 4 foundations of mindfulness is very helpful in the practice. Based on these suttas as well as my own experience, I can say that doing all four foundations of mindfulness is very helpful, rather than limiting yourself to one. But it must be said that it is important to see each satiaptthana to it's natural end- a glimpse of nibbana.

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Jack
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Re: Body v. Mind

Post by Jack »

I used to practice observation of sensations, and later tried to change to observing mind/mind-objects. But I returned to sensations, as I found observation of sensations was more powerful (in the sense that understanding of anicca and anatta is easier). Furthermore, we need not completely stop observing mind/mind-objects while doing vipassana of vedananupassana (observing sensations). Goenka ji teaches that immidiately after observing mind and mental content we should switch to observation of sensations associated with the mental state of that moment.
Moreover, observation of sensations necessarily includes observation of mind (as sensation is part of mental process). Isn't it?[/quote]
=================
When you all mention sensations, are you talking abour body sensations, for instance, pain in a knee, or, vedana, i.e., satisfactory, unsatisfactory or neutral feelings?

Good thread. I have been all over the place. For a long time, my meditation session was maybe 50% on the breath, 10% on the rest of the body and 40% on mental phenomena. At times I would change this to 40% on the breath, 30% on whatever else would enter a sense door and 30% on vedana. In most of these sessions I would spend a moment being mindful of mental condition. Lately I have changed to a rapid fire noting of whatever is going on. My sessions turn out to be 80% body sensations and 20% mental phenomena. There doesn't seem to be time for awareness of vedana. Who knows what will happen in my meditations in the future. These breakdowns of meditation sessions are a guess.

jack

jack
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