Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Reductor » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:56 pm

bodom wrote:Not sure why you seem to be taking this whole bit personally. Devaluation? Where? If you had read the whole article Buddhadasa goes on to say it is best and ideal to practice all 16 steps but if are
unable due to household life, which isn't a big stretch here, there is another method.


Well, I didn't read the article, so I don't know what Buddhadasa has to say. I did read Retro's post to imply a certain devaluation, but that is not the same as taking it personally. It is simply the function of my limited intellect as it attempts to interpret the words of another. I certainly wasn't feeling anything except concern for Retro's predicament.

Retrofuturist wrote:Whilst samatha alone may be fun, I think vipassana as taught by the Buddha is the reason for practicing samatha in the Buddhadhamma... it's not simply samatha for samatha sake. If that's all it was, it wouldn't have taken the Buddha to work that out. I'd rather not waste what mental unity I have attained in such a session, as humble as it might be.


If I am wrong, and it seems that I am, then I apologize.

:namaste:
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Reductor » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:20 pm

Vepacitta wrote:Intersting posts from all - I don't categorise my meditations into 'steps' .
I just watch - which is what most of the meditation texts I've read tell a person to do.
It's fascinating how these things can be reduced to component parts; and it's never occurred to me to do that.


No? :smile: Usually I think over the first four steps early on, just to remind myself how its supposed to unfold. But once I really start it comes down to watching closely and responding skillfully - its pretty dynamic. But I've definitely found the first four steps very very important, in that when things aren't going well it almost always means that I'm not paying enough attention to one of them. So consider them a checklist of sorts, so that you don't over look anything.

Then I know that a point should come when things are 'just right', in which case steps 5 and 6 amount to a slight mental 'nudge' by way of reflection/notice; a subtle observation made during meditation. Then I just keep my mind balanced as the results show themselves.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Vepacitta » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:21 pm

Hey Reductor :smile:

No, it really hasn't occurred to me - it's probably the Ajahn Chah/Ajahn Sumedho influence on me. See the Venerable's post on Ajahn Chah's teaching above.

(Thanks Venerable for that great 'nuts and bolts' meditation teaching from Ven. Chah).

However, I will review the steps - and after the mediation 'calms down' - will analyse it.

tx!

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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby IanAnd » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:08 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Leigh Brasington wrote:This is Piti, which is primarily a physical experience. Physical pleasure this intense is accompanied by emotional pleasure, and this emotional pleasure is Sukha (joy) which is the fourth factor of the First Jhana.

From a purely technical perspective, with reference to the earliest commentaries the two terms are actually understood to be the other way around. Pīti is defined as a mental quality of joy or enthusiasm or delight, etc., and sukha, in the context of jhāna is defined as bodily pleasure.

Now this is all kinda academic, I know, because both pīti and sukha are formless mental dhammas. But that is how these phenomena are understood in the traditional texts. This doesn't mean that Leigh is wrong at all, because we all have to map our own inner mental terrain. And these two phenomena are related mental aspects of that terrain.

Actually, that's a very good catch, Geoff. I agree with the point you're making, as that has been my understanding all along. I quoted Leigh's statement word for word just as he wrote it without editing or qualifying it for accuracy of content because I wanted readers to read the description that I first read. I'm certain that he learned this way of viewing the experience from his teacher Ayya Khema, which perhaps only highlights the personal preference aspect of this whole endeavor at attempting to describe these subtle mental qualities.

Yet, even so, according to the five types of piti which I've seen written about that can be experience, this description may well fall into one of those five categories. In some of those other descriptions, there can be an element of intense physical pleasure (according to the way I've seen them described) which can last for some duration according to the experiencer's desire to hold onto it. This does nothing to diminish the point you have made; it only points to other viewpoints that have come up and been promulgated, which is pretty typical in subjective experience.

The reason I like the word "elation" is that for me (according to how I understand that word and its use; and this may be an entirely personal preference) it is descriptive of those initial moments of delight that arise when one realizes a pleasant outcome whose fruition may have been in doubt. It's like the sudden intake of breath and accompanying affective mental delight or elation when you are told something will occur that you have been hoping would occur but of which there was some doubt would occur. Some people respond to such stimulus with either more or less vigor, which might account for the five types of piti that have been described.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby IanAnd » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:41 pm

Welcome to this discussion, Bhikkhu Gavesako. You're input is valued.

I, too, have benefited greatly from Ajahn Chah's vivid and down-to-earth descriptions of meditation practice. Sometimes, the more examples given, the easier it becomes to discern these subtle qualities and refinements of experience as one's practice matures.

gavesako wrote:I have always liked the practical way in which Ajahn Chah was talking about meditation, from his own experience, but very much in line with the Suttas (and not so much with Ajahn Brahm's Jhana-theory):
_______________

We practice like this until we become skilled in it and it goes smoothly. The next stage is to focus awareness only on the sensation of the breath at the tip of the nose or the upper lip. At this point we aren't concerned with whether the breath is long or short, but only focus on the sensation of entering and exiting. . . .

If you are contemplating skillfully on an object such as the nature of sankhāra, then the mind will experience deeper tranquility and rapture is born. There is the vitakka and vicāra, and that leads to happiness of mind. At this time there won't be any dullness or drowsiness. The mind won't be dark if we practice like this. It will be gladdened and enraptured. . . .

This rapture will start to diminish and disappear after a while, so you can take up the initial thought again. The mind will become firm and certain with it - undistracted.

Then you go on to discursive thought again, the mind becoming one with it.

When you are practicing a meditation that suits your temperament and doing it well, then whenever you take up the object, rapture will come about: the hairs of the body stand on end and the mind is enraptured and satiated.

When it's like this there can't be any dullness or drowsiness. You won't have any doubts. Back and forth between initial and discursive thought, initial and discursive thought, over and over again and rapture comes. Then there is sukha (bliss). . . .

Vitakka is picking it up, vicāra is investigating it. For example, we pick up the idea of death and then we start considering it: ''I will die, others will die, every living being will die; when they die where will they go?'' Then stop! Stop and bring it back again. When it gets running like that, stop it again; and then go back to mindfulness of the breath. Sometimes the discursive thought will wander off and not come back, so you have to stop it. Keep at it until the mind is bright and clear.

If you practice vicāra with an object that you are suited to, you may experience the hairs of your body standing on end, tears pouring from your eyes, a state of extreme delight, many different things as rapture comes. . . .

It's when the mind is tranquil. It's not ordinary mental proliferation. You sit with a calm mind and then the initial thought comes. . . . If it's a line of thinking that's skillful and wholesome, it leads to ease of mind and happiness, and there is rapture with its attendant experiences. This rapture came from the initial and discursive thinking that took place in a state of calmness. We don't have to give it names such as first jhāna, second jhāna and so forth. We just call it tranquility.

The next factor is bliss (sukha). Eventually we drop the initial and discursive thinking as tranquility deepens. Why? The state of mind is becoming more refined and subtle. Vitakka and vicāra are relatively coarse, and they will vanish. There will remain just the rapture accompanied by bliss and one-pointedness of mind. When it reaches full measure there won't be anything, the mind is empty. That's absorption concentration.

We don't need to fixate or dwell on any of these experiences. They will naturally progress from one to the next. At first there is initial and discursive thought, rapture, bliss and onepointedness. Then initial and discursive thinking are thrown off, leaving rapture, bliss, and one-pointedness. Rapture is thrown off, then bliss, and finally only one-pointedness and equanimity remain. It means the mind becomes more and more tranquil, and its objects are steadily decreasing until there is nothing but one-pointedness and equanimity.

When the mind is tranquil and focused this can happen. It is the power of mind, the state of the mind that has attained tranquility.

When it's like this there won't be any sleepiness.
It can't enter the mind; it will disappear.

As for the other hindrances of sensual desire, aversion, doubt and restlessness and agitation, they just won't be present. Though they may still exist latent in the mind of the meditator, they won't occur at this time.

http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Monastery_Confusion1.php
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Agmanellium » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:56 pm

This has helped me greatly in my meditation, especially the part on directed thought towards renunciation, non-aversion, and harmlessness. However I am having problems with harmlessness. I am not a vegetarian. As I meditate my thoughts go to harmlessness and I wrestle with the question of the need to forswear meat in order to be harmless. If i think "what if I try not eating meat?', then the question of wearing leather arises. I know that meat was not forbidden as long as it was not slaughtered specifically for the monks, so my question is this: Since our meat delivery system in the United States is not aimed at any individual, and therefore no animal was slaughtered specifically for me, can I eat it and still consider myself to have done no harm? I have not killed. It was not killed for me, and the killing will continue whether I eat it or not. Most leather is a byproduct of meat slaughter. The skin would only go to waste were it not made into leather. This I have less problem with. To eat a plant is to kill it. To eat a part of a plant is to kill the cells that make up that part. It is not possible to live without killing. Is it therefore the pain that animals suffer that is the harm or are plants merely "second class citizens" of our planet? How do you practice harmlessness?
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:20 pm

Agmanellium wrote:This has helped me greatly in my meditation, especially the part on directed thought towards renunciation, non-aversion, and harmlessness. However I am having problems with harmlessness. I am not a vegetarian. As I meditate my thoughts go to harmlessness and I wrestle with the question of the need to forswear meat in order to be harmless. If i think "what if I try not eating meat?', then the question of wearing leather arises. I know that meat was not forbidden as long as it was not slaughtered specifically for the monks, so my question is this: Since our meat delivery system in the United States is not aimed at any individual, and therefore no animal was slaughtered specifically for me, can I eat it and still consider myself to have done no harm? I have not killed. It was not killed for me, and the killing will continue whether I eat it or not. Most leather is a byproduct of meat slaughter. The skin would only go to waste were it not made into leather. This I have less problem with. To eat a plant is to kill it. To eat a part of a plant is to kill the cells that make up that part. It is not possible to live without killing. Is it therefore the pain that animals suffer that is the harm or are plants merely "second class citizens" of our planet? How do you practice harmlessness?


Yes.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Dmytro » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:46 pm

Hi Modus.Ponens,

Modus.Ponens wrote:But I think this demonstrates an important principle: that the first 12 steps in the anapanasati sutta are meant to be a gradual progression through the jhanas (preparing, producing or strenghtning the apropriate jhana factor).

Has anyone here found this 12 steps interpretation to be true?


The exact progression is given, for example, in the Mahanama sutta:

"And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Calm (passaddhi) goes here after rapture (piti).

So the 16 methods of Anapanasati don't form a strict linear progression, and are organized by four satipatthanas.

The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas is described, for example, in Vimuttimagga, - for eaxample, piti and sukha are understandably connected with the second and third jhanas.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Sobeh » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:01 pm

Dmytro wrote:The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas is described, for example, in Vimuttimagga, - for eaxample, piti and sukha are understandably connected with the second and third jhanas.


What might we conclude about these three (satipatthana, the jhanas, and the stages of anapanasati) if we restrain ourselves to the Suttapitaka?

1) The satipatthana are the guidelines for establishing mindfulness.
2) Anapanasati fulfills satipatthana. (So does kayagatasati.)
3) It is never said anywhere in the Suttas that the jhanas fulfill satipatthana.

Conclusion) The jhanas are not included in satipatthana.
Result) The jhanas are not a part of any of the 16 stages of anapanasati.

---
In other words:

Given that

sammasati = satipatthana (eg. anapanasati, kayagatasati), and
sammasamadhi = four jhanas (perhaps eight?):

Therefore, since

sammaditthi =/= sammasankappa
sammasankappa =/= sammavaca
...
sammasati =/= sammasamadhi

The conclusion is forced:

{satipatthana =/= jhana}
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:10 pm

Sobeh wrote:
Dmytro wrote:The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas is described, for example, in Vimuttimagga, - for eaxample, piti and sukha are understandably connected with the second and third jhanas.


What might we conclude about these three (satipatthana, the jhanas, and the stages of anapanasati) if we restrain ourselves to the Suttapitaka?

1) The satipatthana are the guidelines for establishing mindfulness.
2) Anapanasati fulfills satipatthana. (So does kayagatasati.)
3) It is never said anywhere in the Suttas that the jhanas fulfill satipatthana.

Conclusion) The jhanas are not included in satipatthana.
Result) The jhanas are not a part of any of the 16 stages of anapanasati.
As much I want to stay out of this, I find your statement interesting and I think you are correct and I really would like to see your textual support for this.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Sobeh » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:24 pm

I added a more formal bit after you posted, Tilt, so maybe that one is clearer generally.
---

That the word Satipatthana itself means "the four establishments of mindfulness" establishes premise (1) as a tautology.
The Anapanasati and Kayagatasati Suttas declare premise (2).
Premise (3) is unproven (one can't prove a negative), but to discard it will require contrasting proof, i.e. a Sutta citation whereby jhanas are declared to fulfill satipatthana.

The rest follows necessarily.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Reductor » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:28 pm

Sobeh wrote:...

The conclusion is forced:

{satipatthana =/= jhana}


Hey there,

While I think it safe to say that satipatthana is not equal to jhana, I would go no further than that. That is, I would see the two as related, with jhana denoting the 'degree' to which the mind if focused on a foundation of mindfulness.

Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?"

"Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development

MN 43
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:33 pm

Sobeh wrote:I added a more formal bit after you posted, Tilt, so maybe that one is clearer generally.
---

That the word Satipatthana itself means "the four establishments of mindfulness" establishes premise (1) as a tautology.
The Anapanasati and Kayagatasati Suttas declare premise (2).
Premise (3) is unproven (one can't prove a negative), but to discard it will require contrasting proof, i.e. a Sutta citation whereby jhanas are declared to fulfill satipatthana.

The rest follows necessarily.
Thanks, and now I stand back and watch the fireworks. Maybe some good ooohs and aaaahs.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Sobeh » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:35 pm

thereductor wrote:While I think it safe to say that satipatthana is not equal to jhana, I would go no further than that. That is, I would see the two as related, with jhana denoting the 'degree' to which the mind if focused on a foundation of mindfulness.


That quote isn't from MN 43, but MN 44; however, it is talking about Samadhi as a third of the Noble Eightfold Path (aside Panna and Sila).

"Singleness of mind is concentration, (sammasamadhi)
the four frames of reference are its themes, (sammasati)
the four right exertions are its requisites, (sammavayama)

and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these {three} qualities is its {Samadhi} development."

Here are the paragraphs in MN 44 which directly precede those you've quoted:

"And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"

"The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."

"Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?"
Last edited by Sobeh on Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Nyana » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:40 pm

Sobeh wrote:sammasati =/= sammasamadhi

Hi Sobeh,

Of course sammāsati is not the same as sammāsamādhi. Sammāsati is the cause for sammāsamādhi to occur (MN 44). The commentary adds that it is the requisite condition. This fully accords with what Dmytro was indicating above.

It’s worth noting just how closely related mindfulness of the body (kāyānupassanā, kāyagatāsati) and the mental factors of mindfulness and full awareness (sati and sampajañña) are to the development of the four jhānas. This can be seen from the following sutta excerpts:

    You should train yourself thus: ‘I will remain focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.’ That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. [AN 8.63]

    Monks, those monks who are trainees, who have not attained their mind’s ideal, who dwell aspiring for the unsurpassed security from bondage – they too dwell contemplating the body in the body, ardent, alert, unified, with limpid mind, concentrated, with one-pointed mind, in order to fully understand the body as it really is. [SN 47.4]

    When one thing is practiced & pursued, the body is calmed (kāya passambhati), the mind is calmed (citta passambhati), thinking & evaluating are stilled (vitakkavicārā vūpasama), and all qualities on the side of clear knowing go to the culmination of their development. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body (kāyagatāsati). [AN 1.227]

    As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that fact.... As a result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, together with mindfulness & alertness (satisampajañña). [SN 47.8]

This is just a partial survey. Many more examples could be provided.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Dmytro » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:44 pm

Hi,

Ñāṇa wrote:It might be worth mentioning again that there are basically three approaches to mental development in the context of meditation:

    (i) attention training where one absorbs into a single object and thereby stills all mental factors to the point where, as Ajahn Brahmavamso explains, “Consciousness is so focused on the one thing that the faculty of comprehension is suspended … there is no comprehension of what is going on.”

    (ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, “It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own.”

    (iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).


Well, apparently my approach is different. It follows the line of Tapussa sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

where one gradually abandons the coarse factors one by one. The key here is the clear practical framework to determine the presence of skillful and unskillful qualities. This can be done, for example, by noticing the attitude to the breath, as described in the Anapanasati chapter of Patisambhidamagga: http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html . The list of five hindrances is just the essential guide - there can be lots of versions of various hindrances.

The essential 'attention training' here involves very precise work with re-directing attention, as described, for example, in Ahara sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html . I'm suspicious of the approaches where one is recommended to just keep the attention on something, since they lead to trance states. Skillful mental qualities require precise work in diagnosis and re-direction of attention.

I don't attend to any single physical object - this would narrow the mind, while the Satipatthana sutta advocates the development of the spacious mind (mahaggatta citta). It's essential here to understand that the focus of the jhana is not a single object, but a certain quality - liquid (water), solid body (earth), plasma (fire), gas (air, as in Anapanasati), or primary colors. In technical terms, concentration need a basis (arammana). And ekaggatta (mistranslated as one-pointedness) is the prevalence of one arammana in the mind, as described in the thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550

Somehow there evolved a simplistic notion of concentration as just keeping attention endlessly on one point until one gets in some trance state. This leads nowhere. On the contrary, samadhi requires a precise basis, which can be made predominant in the mind to the extent of totality (kasina).

"There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

This requires a careful removal of hindrances one by one, as described, for example, in Upakkilesa sutta: http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... esa-e.html
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Sobeh » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:45 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:Of course sammāsati is not the same as sammāsamādhi. Sammāsati is the cause for sammāsamādhi to occur (MN 44). The commentary adds that it is the requisite condition. This fully accords with what Dmytro was indicating above.


Alas, it doesn't. He said: "The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas...", which I am disproving.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Nyana » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:46 pm

Sobeh wrote: Anapanasati fulfills satipatthana.

And ānāpānassati also gives rise to ānāpānassatisamādhi. SN 54.8 Padīpopama Sutta:

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, enter and remain in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation enter and remain in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the fading away of joy, remain equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experience pleasure with the body; may I enter and remain in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly,’” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the earlier passing away of happiness and unhappiness, enter and remain in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Reductor » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:47 pm

Sobeh wrote:That quote isn't from MN 43, but MN 44; however, it is talking about Samadhi as a third of the Noble Eightfold Path (aside Panna and Sila).


You're right! :?
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The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

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To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:48 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Modus.Ponens,

The exact progression is given, for example, in the Mahanama sutta:

"And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Calm (passaddhi) goes here after rapture (piti).

So the 16 methods of Anapanasati don't form a strict linear progression, and are organized by four satipatthanas.

The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas is described, for example, in Vimuttimagga, - for eaxample, piti and sukha are understandably connected with the second and third jhanas.


Hi Dmytro

I'll post a modified message I once posted on websangha stating what my interpretation is about the MN118.

________________________________________________________________________________

Translation from Ajahn Thanissaro. So here it goes:

Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

This develops directed thought.

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'

This develops evaluation.

[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.'

This sets up mindfullness of the whole body in preparation to the next step.

[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'3 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming the bodily fabrication.'


This develops rapture.

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'

This develops pleasure. First jhana achieved.

1-Direct thought
2-Evaluation
3-Happiness
4-Pleasure

[6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

This steadies the first jhana.

[7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'4 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.'

This sets up the next step.


[8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'


This stills direct thought and evaluation. Second jhana achieved.

1-Hapiness
2-Pleasure
3-Unification of mind
4-Internal assurance

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.'

This sets up the next step.

[10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.'

This eliminates hapiness and mental pleasure (maybe "satisfying" means to cultivate some kind of contentment and because of this hapiness and mental pleasure fades...). Third jhana achieved.

1-Physical pleasure
2-Equanimity
3-Mindfullness
4-Alertness

[11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.

This steadies the mindfulness.


[12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'


This releases from pleasure and pain. Fourth jhana achieved.

1-Equanimity
2-Mindfullness
3-Neither pleasure nor pain.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyone here can confirm that this is the case?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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