Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Sobeh
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Sobeh »

I added a more formal bit after you posted, Tilt, so maybe that one is clearer generally.
---

That the word Satipatthana itself means "the four establishments of mindfulness" establishes premise (1) as a tautology.
The Anapanasati and Kayagatasati Suttas declare premise (2).
Premise (3) is unproven (one can't prove a negative), but to discard it will require contrasting proof, i.e. a Sutta citation whereby jhanas are declared to fulfill satipatthana.

The rest follows necessarily.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Reductor »

Sobeh wrote: ...

The conclusion is forced:

{satipatthana =/= jhana}
Hey there,

While I think it safe to say that satipatthana is not equal to jhana, I would go no further than that. That is, I would see the two as related, with jhana denoting the 'degree' to which the mind if focused on a foundation of mindfulness.
Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?"

"Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development
MN 43
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings »

Sobeh wrote:I added a more formal bit after you posted, Tilt, so maybe that one is clearer generally.
---

That the word Satipatthana itself means "the four establishments of mindfulness" establishes premise (1) as a tautology.
The Anapanasati and Kayagatasati Suttas declare premise (2).
Premise (3) is unproven (one can't prove a negative), but to discard it will require contrasting proof, i.e. a Sutta citation whereby jhanas are declared to fulfill satipatthana.

The rest follows necessarily.
Thanks, and now I stand back and watch the fireworks. Maybe some good ooohs and aaaahs.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sobeh
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Sobeh »

thereductor wrote:While I think it safe to say that satipatthana is not equal to jhana, I would go no further than that. That is, I would see the two as related, with jhana denoting the 'degree' to which the mind if focused on a foundation of mindfulness.
That quote isn't from MN 43, but MN 44; however, it is talking about Samadhi as a third of the Noble Eightfold Path (aside Panna and Sila).

"Singleness of mind is concentration, (sammasamadhi)
the four frames of reference are its themes, (sammasati)
the four right exertions are its requisites, (sammavayama)

and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these {three} qualities is its {Samadhi} development."

Here are the paragraphs in MN 44 which directly precede those you've quoted:
"And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"

"The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."

"Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?"
Last edited by Sobeh on Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nyana
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

Sobeh wrote:sammasati =/= sammasamadhi
Hi Sobeh,

Of course sammāsati is not the same as sammāsamādhi. Sammāsati is the cause for sammāsamādhi to occur (MN 44). The commentary adds that it is the requisite condition. This fully accords with what Dmytro was indicating above.

It’s worth noting just how closely related mindfulness of the body (kāyānupassanā, kāyagatāsati) and the mental factors of mindfulness and full awareness (sati and sampajañña) are to the development of the four jhānas. This can be seen from the following sutta excerpts:
  • You should train yourself thus: ‘I will remain focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.’ That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. [AN 8.63]

    Monks, those monks who are trainees, who have not attained their mind’s ideal, who dwell aspiring for the unsurpassed security from bondage – they too dwell contemplating the body in the body, ardent, alert, unified, with limpid mind, concentrated, with one-pointed mind, in order to fully understand the body as it really is. [SN 47.4]

    When one thing is practiced & pursued, the body is calmed (kāya passambhati), the mind is calmed (citta passambhati), thinking & evaluating are stilled (vitakkavicārā vūpasama), and all qualities on the side of clear knowing go to the culmination of their development. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body (kāyagatāsati). [AN 1.227]

    As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that fact.... As a result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, together with mindfulness & alertness (satisampajañña). [SN 47.8]
This is just a partial survey. Many more examples could be provided.

All the best,

Geoff
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Assaji
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Assaji »

Hi,
Ñāṇa wrote:It might be worth mentioning again that there are basically three approaches to mental development in the context of meditation:
  • (i) attention training where one absorbs into a single object and thereby stills all mental factors to the point where, as Ajahn Brahmavamso explains, “Consciousness is so focused on the one thing that the faculty of comprehension is suspended … there is no comprehension of what is going on.”

    (ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, “It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own.”

    (iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).
Well, apparently my approach is different. It follows the line of Tapussa sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

where one gradually abandons the coarse factors one by one. The key here is the clear practical framework to determine the presence of skillful and unskillful qualities. This can be done, for example, by noticing the attitude to the breath, as described in the Anapanasati chapter of Patisambhidamagga: http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . The list of five hindrances is just the essential guide - there can be lots of versions of various hindrances.

The essential 'attention training' here involves very precise work with re-directing attention, as described, for example, in Ahara sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I'm suspicious of the approaches where one is recommended to just keep the attention on something, since they lead to trance states. Skillful mental qualities require precise work in diagnosis and re-direction of attention.

I don't attend to any single physical object - this would narrow the mind, while the Satipatthana sutta advocates the development of the spacious mind (mahaggatta citta). It's essential here to understand that the focus of the jhana is not a single object, but a certain quality - liquid (water), solid body (earth), plasma (fire), gas (air, as in Anapanasati), or primary colors. In technical terms, concentration need a basis (arammana). And ekaggatta (mistranslated as one-pointedness) is the prevalence of one arammana in the mind, as described in the thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Somehow there evolved a simplistic notion of concentration as just keeping attention endlessly on one point until one gets in some trance state. This leads nowhere. On the contrary, samadhi requires a precise basis, which can be made predominant in the mind to the extent of totality (kasina).

"There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This requires a careful removal of hindrances one by one, as described, for example, in Upakkilesa sutta: http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... esa-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Sobeh »

Ñāṇa wrote:Of course sammāsati is not the same as sammāsamādhi. Sammāsati is the cause for sammāsamādhi to occur (MN 44). The commentary adds that it is the requisite condition. This fully accords with what Dmytro was indicating above.
Alas, it doesn't. He said: "The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas...", which I am disproving.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

Sobeh wrote: Anapanasati fulfills satipatthana.
And ānāpānassati also gives rise to ānāpānassatisamādhi. SN 54.8 Padīpopama Sutta:
  • Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, enter and remain in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation enter and remain in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the fading away of joy, remain equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experience pleasure with the body; may I enter and remain in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly,’” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the earlier passing away of happiness and unhappiness, enter and remain in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.
All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Reductor »

Sobeh wrote: That quote isn't from MN 43, but MN 44; however, it is talking about Samadhi as a third of the Noble Eightfold Path (aside Panna and Sila).
You're right! :?
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Modus.Ponens,

The exact progression is given, for example, in the Mahanama sutta:

"And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Calm (passaddhi) goes here after rapture (piti).

So the 16 methods of Anapanasati don't form a strict linear progression, and are organized by four satipatthanas.

The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas is described, for example, in Vimuttimagga, - for eaxample, piti and sukha are understandably connected with the second and third jhanas.
Hi Dmytro

I'll post a modified message I once posted on websangha stating what my interpretation is about the MN118.

________________________________________________________________________________

Translation from Ajahn Thanissaro. So here it goes:

Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

This develops directed thought.

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'

This develops evaluation.

[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.'

This sets up mindfullness of the whole body in preparation to the next step.

[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'3 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming the bodily fabrication.'


This develops rapture.

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'

This develops pleasure. First jhana achieved.

1-Direct thought
2-Evaluation
3-Happiness
4-Pleasure

[6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

This steadies the first jhana.

[7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'4 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.'

This sets up the next step.


[8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'


This stills direct thought and evaluation. Second jhana achieved.

1-Hapiness
2-Pleasure
3-Unification of mind
4-Internal assurance

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.'

This sets up the next step.

[10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.'

This eliminates hapiness and mental pleasure (maybe "satisfying" means to cultivate some kind of contentment and because of this hapiness and mental pleasure fades...). Third jhana achieved.

1-Physical pleasure
2-Equanimity
3-Mindfullness
4-Alertness

[11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.

This steadies the mindfulness.


[12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'


This releases from pleasure and pain. Fourth jhana achieved.

1-Equanimity
2-Mindfullness
3-Neither pleasure nor pain.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyone here can confirm that this is the case?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

Sobeh wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Of course sammāsati is not the same as sammāsamādhi. Sammāsati is the cause for sammāsamādhi to occur (MN 44). The commentary adds that it is the requisite condition. This fully accords with what Dmytro was indicating above.
Alas, it doesn't. He said: "The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas...", which I am disproving.
Disproving? It's clearly stated in the Vimuttimagga which Dmytro referred to:
Dmytro wrote:The connection of the first three tetrads of Anapanasati with jhanas is described, for example, in Vimuttimagga, - for eaxample, piti and sukha are understandably connected with the second and third jhanas.
Vimuttimagga Chapter on Mindfulness of Breathing:
  • Of these sixteen [steps of ānāpānassati], the first twelve fulfill samatha and vipassanā, and are discerned as impermanence. The last four fulfill only vipassanā. Thus should samatha and vipassanā be understood....

    And again, practice means attaining to a state (of jhāna) through mindfulness of breathing. This is practice. Through this mind­fulness of breathing, one attains to the state which is with initial application of thought. That is the state which is with initial and sustained application of thought, and the state of sustained application of thought. The experiencing of joy is the state of the second jhāna. The experiencing of pleasure is the state of the third jhāna. The experien­cing of the mind is the state of the fourth jhāna.
Thus you're not disproving anything.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote: Disproving? It's clearly stated in the Vimuttimagga which Dmytro referred to:
The Vimuttimagga is a commentarial work. What do the suttas say?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:The Vimuttimagga is a commentarial work. What do the suttas say?
That's already been addressed in this reply and this reply.

All the best,

Geoff
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The Vimuttimagga is a commentarial work. What do the suttas say?
That's already been addressed in this reply and this reply.

All the best,

Geoff
If you say so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The Vimuttimagga is a commentarial work. What do the suttas say?
That's already been addressed in this reply and this reply.

All the best,

Geoff
If you say so.
The canon says so. Ānāpānassati gives rise to ānāpānassatisamādhi. Closely attending to ānāpānassatisamādhi gives rise to the four jhānas. SN 54.8 Padīpopama Sutta:
  • Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, enter and remain in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation enter and remain in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the fading away of joy, remain equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experience pleasure with the body; may I enter and remain in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly,’” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

    Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the earlier passing away of happiness and unhappiness, enter and remain in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.


Nothing to get hung up on Tilt.
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