Suttanta method?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Kenshou
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by Kenshou »

I like the sound of that, Retro.

I've come to regard the Theravadin commentary as I would any other teacher, another voice to listen to, another perspective that might prove useful, but not necessarily the final word, just like I wouldn't regard any other random bhikkhu's take to be the final word.
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DNS
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by DNS »

tiltbillings wrote: What this is essentially is a Theravada Protestantism, which is as much I am going to say here, though Dhamma free-for-all section is available.
I can see how it is somewhat related to some Protestant denominations, for example, seeking to get back to the 'original teachings' that are sometimes found in some denominations.

But in other ways it can be seen as almost an orthodox version of Buddhism, getting back to the earliest teachings with less adherence to later teachings and interpretations. In that way it is perhaps more similar to the early Christian Gnostics, Jews who only follow the Torah, Samaritan and Ethiopian Jews who only follow the first six books of the Bible and reject the Talmud (Jewish commentaries).
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cooran
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

A couple of related threads:

did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1210" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meditation Mindfulness Technique
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally, I don't think the Suttas delineate a particular Technique or Method - I believe that those hearing the suttas were in a group and able to access the instruction of someone well-versed in the Dhamma to practise correctly.

with metta
Chris
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mikenz66
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi David,
David N. Snyder wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: That's certainly the way I see it. Furthermore, it seems to be an extremely modern idea that it is possible to figure out how to practise by just reading Suttas. I don't believe that I would ever have got anywhere just by reading Suttas (or Commetaries for that matter). I really needed (and still need) experienced teachers (either in person or via books, recordings, etc).
But you can still be Suttanta based (Modern Theravada) and have teachers. You can seek out those teachers who are also Suttanta. :tongue:

Most of my teachers have been primarily Suttanta. I did not seek them out, it just sort of happened.
Yes, that's exactly my point. You didn't just read Suttas, you had teachers. Like Cooran, I don't think that the Suttas are really a particularly detailed instruction manual.

Above I quoted a Suttas http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 751#p90711" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that talks about getting more detailed instruction from a teacher/friend, and there are many more, such as the Anapanasati Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, together with many well-known elder disciples — with Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions.
the Canki Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... But to what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."

"There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: ...

... he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.
And the difficulties in getting sufficient information from the Suttas is discussed here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 478#p90478" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dmytro wrote: Too often this "early Buddhism" approach" becomes a kind of reductionism - if it isn't mentioned expressly in the suttas, it's untrue. Given the fact that the descriptions in the suttas are stylized for ease of oral transmission, it's no wonder that lots of things are not mentioned.
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by Reductor »

Nice post, Retro.

I was thinking that we often loose sight of how the canon and the Theravada are related. That is, the Theravada is a supplement to the canon, and not the other way around. So where a mode of practice can be effectively defended with canonical material it should be considered as valid. To insist that such a position is invalid because it runs counter to the tradition is, to me, the making of inappropriate strife.

And while I do concur that the canon is not the most detailed manual, I hold that the details within its pages are sufficient for completion of the goal. Whether or not a particular practitioner can ferret out the information and act on it to the degree necessary to accomplish the goal is a matter of personal conditioning.

But with that said, I've certainly had some hard questions that I would have liked put to a teacher. But lacking such, I was forced to think them over long and hard. Perhaps I've gotten to the correct answers. Or perhaps not.

:namaste:
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mikenz66
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: Let us not forget that in the 2500+ years since the Buddha, the ignorance of human beings has managed to interpret, re-interpret and misunderstand the Buddha's message in countless different ways. Looking around at the various forms of Buddhism nowadays it's hard to reconcile that they all spawned from a single source. To me this is a product of taking the commentaries/masters as authoritative subjects rather than seeing them as a filter through which to view that which should be taken as authoritative. According to this text ( http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )... "The Theravādin commentators apparently intended their writings in the Aṭṭhakathā – literally ‘discussions on the meaning’ –more as explorations than absolute statements of truth"... and I think that is a healthy way in which to regard them.
Of course people can get all sorts of things wrong. But it seems to me that many (most?) who make use the Commentaries have exactly the attitude you quoted, as Davis explains on the page you quoted from:
Jake Davis wrote:There is thus a strong tendency to regard as
corrupted those canonical texts that would contradict the
assertions of the commentators. A few powerful monks have
taken issue with this extreme stance, however, notably the
Mahāsi Sayadaw. The Theravādin commentators apparently
intended their writings in the Aṭṭhakathā – literally ‘discussions
on the meaning’ – more as explorations than absolute statements
of truth, according to Warder’s reading.
…we have in these ancient ‘discussions on the meaning’ not a
dogmatic system but an enquiry carried on by these old teachers
of the school into the real nature of things. They build on what
has come down to them but they also seek to extend and improve
it, and some conclusions they offer as tentative or controversial.
I think it is quite obvious to anyone has actually read any commentarial literature that it is a discussion. Certainly, as indicated in the quote, Mahasi Sayadaw and his students present it as such.

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by mikenz66 »

Kenshou wrote:Here's a few...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's a useful list. An easy way to add to it is from the Contents page of Bhikkhu Bodhi's In the Buddha's Words selection. You can download the introductory material as a PDF here: http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... n=&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; though the book itself is inexpensive...

Most of the Suttas can be found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but note that the numbering schemes can vary a little and some of the translations are not so easy to read as Bhikkhu Bodhi's clear prose...

In The Buddha's Words
VII. The Path to Liberation
Introduction 223
1. Why Does One Enter the Path? 2. Analysis of the Eightfold Path (SN 45:8) 239 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. Good Friendship (SN 45:2) 240 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. The Graduated Training (MN 27) 241 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5. The Higher Stages of Training with Similes (from MN 39) 250 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

VIII. Mastering the Mind
Introduction 257
1. The Mind Is the Key (AN 1: iii, 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 10) 267 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. Developing a Pair of Skills 3. The Hindrances to Mental Development (SN 46:55, abridged) 270 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. The Refinement of the Mind (AN 3:100 §§1–10) 273 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts (MN 20) 275 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
6. The Mind of Loving-Kindness (from MN 21) 278 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
7. The Six Recollections (AN 6:10) 279 8. The Four Establishments of Mindfulness (MN 10) 281 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
9. Mindfulness of Breathing (SN 54:13) 290 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
10. The Achievement of Mastery (SN 28:1–9, combined) 296 http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
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Ytrog
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by Ytrog »

Thanks to all for your answers. I come to the conclusion that I really need to study the tipitaka more as I see some very interesting links here.
To summarise: the suttanta method tries to base the practise almost exclusively on the methods described in the suttas resulting in a more free-form practice. This would, however need more experience/guidance than a more modern method based on the abhidhamma and the commentaries.

If I understand correctly the commentaries where a bit like an ancient precursor of this forum with far more experienced participants.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Ytrog wrote:To summarise: the suttanta method tries to base the practise almost exclusively on the methods described in the suttas resulting in a more free-form practice. This would, however need more experience/guidance than a more modern method based on the abhidhamma and the commentaries.
So in the suttas we have the methods described, for example, in the Satipathanna and Anapanasati Suttas. These can be used as a basis for vipassana but were not originally described in that way, and particular methods called "vipassana" subsequently emerged? Something like that? :)

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mikenz66
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Re: Suttanta method?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Spiny,

I don't really know if you can generalise about styles of teachers. If you consider teachers who say that they base their approach primarily on the Suttas you actually have quite a range, from "hard jhana" (e.g. Ajahn Brahm and some of the other Ajahn Chah lineage such as Ajahn Chandako), through a kind of mixed jhana/vipassana-oriented model (e.g. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Bhante Vimalaramsi, and various others) to more of a vipassana-oriented model (e.g. Ajahn Tiradhammo, Ajahn Munindo, and various others of the Ajahn Chah lineage).

Similarly, if you look at some of the famous Burmese teachers who do make use of commentaries , you also have a range from Pa Auk Sayadaw (who teaches a "hard jhana" that sounds rather similar to what Ajahn Brahm teaches) to the more vipassana-oriented style of Mahasi Sayadaw, Sayadaw/U Pandita/etc, or Sayadaw U Tejaniya.

I normally use a Mahasi-style approach, but I've done a couple of short retreats with Ajahn Tiradhammo (who has been in New Zealand for a few years), and from my point of view there are more similarities than differences. He teaches a different primary object when sitting (breath vs abdomen) and doesn't teach the Mahasi-style noting. Other than that it's the usual Satipatthana stuff, starting with grounding oneself in the body then adding feelings, mind states, etc.

Note that I only mention these particular Bhikkhus because I am familiar with them from books, recordings, or a little personal contact. And you can easily find their teachings on the Internet. [No point in mentioning the various teachers I've had at my local Wat...] Obviously there are thousands of other Theravada teachers, most of whom we in the West don't have access to due to language issues...

Mike
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