Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

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gavesako
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Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

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Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist

By B. Alan Wallace

"As Buddhism has encountered modernity, it runs against widespread prejudices, both religious and anti-religious, and it is common for all those with such biases to misrepresent Buddhism, either intentionally or unintentionally. ... But if we are ever to encounter the Buddhist vision of reality, we must first set aside all our philosophical biases, whether they are theistic, agnostic, atheist, or otherwise. Then, through critical, disciplined study of the most reliable sources of the Buddha’s teachings, guided by qualified spiritual friends and teachers, followed by rigorous, sustained practice, we may encounter the Buddhist vision of reality. And with this encounter with our own true nature, we may realize freedom through our own experience. That is the end of agnosticism, for we come to know reality as it is, and the truth will set us free."


http://www.mandalamagazine.org/archives ... d-atheist/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

__________


Well worth reading!

:reading:
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Kare
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Kare »

gavesako wrote:Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist

By B. Alan Wallace

"As Buddhism has encountered modernity, it runs against widespread prejudices, both religious and anti-religious, and it is common for all those with such biases to misrepresent Buddhism, either intentionally or unintentionally. ... But if we are ever to encounter the Buddhist vision of reality, we must first set aside all our philosophical biases, whether they are theistic, agnostic, atheist, or otherwise. Then, through critical, disciplined study of the most reliable sources of the Buddha’s teachings, guided by qualified spiritual friends and teachers, followed by rigorous, sustained practice, we may encounter the Buddhist vision of reality. And with this encounter with our own true nature, we may realize freedom through our own experience. That is the end of agnosticism, for we come to know reality as it is, and the truth will set us free."


http://www.mandalamagazine.org/archives ... d-atheist/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

__________


Well worth reading!

:reading:
When a person stars his argumentation by branding all opposing views as "prejudices", it has the effect of making me a bit sceptical to his own views. Is he able to see his own prejudices? Or is he telling us that he has none?
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by mikenz66 »

See also these threads:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... iew=unread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd encourage everyone to take Bachelor's little quiz about 20 minutes into his first recording here:
http://www.sati.org/audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Scroll down to
  • Deconstructing Buddhism
    Stephen Batchelor
Mike
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by tiltbillings »

Kare wrote:
When a person stars his argumentation by branding all opposing views as "prejudices", it has the effect of making me a bit sceptical to his own views. Is he able to see his own prejudices? Or is he telling us that he has none?
Wallace leaves a great deal to be desired as his dialogue with Ven Bodhi shows.

http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files ... ndence.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 250#p74190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Ben »

gavesako wrote:Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist

By B. Alan Wallace

But if we are ever to encounter the Buddhist vision of reality, we must first set aside all our philosophical biases, whether they are theistic, agnostic, atheist, or otherwise.
Interesting, coming from Wallace. Not that I am a fan of Batchelor but in this instance I think its a case of 'the pot calling the kettle black'.
Anything by Wallace should be treated with caution.
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by KalyanamittaWgtn »

Many thanks to Ven Gavesako for posting the link to the comments by B Allan Wallace on Stephen Batchelor's book Confession of a Buddhist Atheist. It would be good to look closely at the way the ancient Pali texts are being translated by scholars such as Ven Analayo and Bhikkhu Bodhi and put them alongside those of Stephen Batchelor. That way we can approach the Buddha.
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by mikenz66 »

Speaking of Bhikkhu Bodhi, here is his review of Bachelors earlier book, Buddhism Without Beliefs.
http://www.buddhistethics.org/5/batch1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:I would also maintain that when the secular presuppositions of modernity clash with the basic principles of Right Understanding stressed by the Buddha, there is no question which of the two must be abandoned. Sa.msaara as the beginningless round of rebirths, kamma as its regulative law, Nibbaana as a transcendent goal—surely these ideas will not get a rousing welcome from sceptical minds. A sense of refuge, renunciation, compassion based on the perception of universal suffering, a striving to break all mental bonds and fetters—surely these values are difficult in an age of easy pleasure. But these are all so fundamental to the true Dhamma, so closely woven into its fabric, that to delete them is to risk nullifying its liberative power. If this means that Buddhism retains its character as a religion, so be it. In this I see nothing to fear; the greater danger is in diluting the teaching so much that its potency is lost. The secularization of life and the widespread decline in moral values have had grave consequences throughout the world, jeopardizing our collective sanity and survival. Today a vast cloud of moral and spiritual confusion hangs over humankind, and Batchelor's agnostic dharma practice seems to me a very weak antidote indeed. In my view, what we require is a clear articulation of the essential principles taught by the Buddha himself in all their breadth and profundity. The challenge—and it is a difficult one—is to express these principles in a living language that addresses the deep crises of our time.
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Ben »

Thanks Mike, that is excellent!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Kare »

"The secularization of life and the widespread decline in moral values have had grave consequences throughout the world, jeopardizing our collective sanity and survival. "

If Bhikkhu Bodhi here really means that a less secularized society has higher moral standards, I suppose the victims of priestly abuses and the victims of religious terrorists and suicide bombers might beg to disagree.
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Individual »

I loved this:
Kare wrote: When a person stars his argumentation by branding all opposing views as "prejudices", it has the effect of making me a bit sceptical to his own views. Is he able to see his own prejudices? Or is he telling us that he has none?
But about this:
Kare wrote:"The secularization of life and the widespread decline in moral values have had grave consequences throughout the world, jeopardizing our collective sanity and survival. "

If Bhikkhu Bodhi here really means that a less secularized society has higher moral standards, I suppose the victims of priestly abuses and the victims of religious terrorists and suicide bombers might beg to disagree.
He might agree with you. But he said the "secularization of life AND the widespread decline in moral values". The two have to go together. He said and, not or.

In other words, religion should dominate society, but it should be the RIGHT religion, a MORAL religion. More like Thailand, less like Tibet, Saudi Arabia, the Vatican, etc..
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Kare »

Individual wrote: In other words, religion should dominate society, but it should be the RIGHT religion, a MORAL religion. More like Thailand, less like Tibet, Saudi Arabia, the Vatican, etc..
I could easily agree with you. A minor problem might be, however, that the right religion for me might not be the right religion for my neighbor ... so who should then decide which religion should dominate our society? Me or my neighbor?
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by plwk »

Gawd ... just can't get over Batchelor and on with life can we... :tongue:
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by 5heaps »

Kare wrote:When a person stars his argumentation by branding all opposing views as "prejudices", it has the effect of making me a bit sceptical to his own views.
how bizarre. he did no such thing. he is merely positing the convention of prejudice and warning against it
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Laurens »

I do not think it is correct to try to manipulate the teachings of the Buddha to suit one's own personal views, and it is for this reason that I personally abandoned Buddhism. I do not believe in kamma as a system that spans from life time to life time, I do not believe that we are reborn after we die, I do not believe that there are other realms of existence, I do not believe in ghosts. However, I would not seek to make out that the Buddha did not teach these things. I think the most humble thing one can do in that situation is to step away from Buddhism, rather than rewrite it. I felt the practice of Buddhism required me to make leaps and assumptions that I wasn't comfortable making, or to entertain these teachings as probably being true, when I did not feel this was so. Therefore I stopped being Buddhist.

Sure I learnt a lot from it, and I still meditate. But I am not a Buddhist, because I believe some of the fundamental tenants of Buddhism may well be false. I think Stephen Bachelor should take the same approach. Rather than perverting Buddhism into saying something that it does not, just abandon the label Buddhist, because it clearly doesn't fit with the way you view the world, if you are having to twist the core teachings.
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Re: Critique of Batchelor’s "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist"

Post by Dan74 »

Laurens wrote:...if you are having to twist the core teachings.
Well perhaps this is the real question: are these the core teachings? My guess is that Batchelor doesn't think so. Ajahn Buddhadasa didn't think they were even Buddhist, but he is likely in a minority on this. Still I would call him Buddhist.

And while there is a lot of evidence in the Pali Canon that the Buddha taught rebirth, I haven't seen a reference where he taught that this belief is part of the Right View. On the other hand clinging to various views of self and its post-mortem fate definitely isn't.

So to my way of seeing, a genuinely agnostic (ie open) attitude to this question is in line with the Right View. No doubt with the right practice, in time this question will too be sorted.
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