Nathan, can I point you to the rule for this part of the forum:nathan wrote:A thread with this title should not even exist here. Mods, change the title, remove the thread or remove Dhamma from the name and call these forums Wheel from now on.
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Short of seeing, knowing, realizing and understanding, directly and precisely, there is only reasoning and faith. So any perceptions, conceptions and everything based on that has not been informed by the most important and only irrefutable kind of knowledge and understanding. Stream entry takes all of this out of the realm of theory. No model, and the three life model is only that, a rough sketch, can come close to the dynamic complexity of the real universe. Be it in the present life, over three lives or over a million lives, the connections between being past, being present and being future are ongoing and continuous. Only the arahant knows and sees things as they are and knows why the cycles of being have fully resolved within. Between the fruit of stream entry and final release it is "entirely obvious" that short of ending the cycles that cause manifest existence, it will continue regardless of the forms it takes. When one sees directly why one exists, one knows that it can not end until the cyclic forces within have been entirely brought to stillness.
Arguments about rebirth, what it is, how it works, why it works and so on take place in complete ignorance of the living evidence within oneself that does not exist at all before this is seen directly for what it is. Noble beings do not question any of this at all. So it is pretty obvious to the Noble beings and to every one else that understands the criteria for real understanding that everyone else is quite clueless about the true basis for all of this. Until it is seen, the best approach is to acknowledge one's ignorance, to admit, to oneself at least, that one is ignorant of the truth of this and to make every effort to establish that truth and no effort to make any determination of any other kind. People can go on and on about this and any number of things forever until then, in fact they do. Do yourself a favor, save yourself the shame and remorse you will feel if and when you do understand for having taken any stance on this and made any claims of any kind regarding the true understanding of dependent origination and rebirth before stream entry. Those who persist in declaring any understanding while still fully in ignorance are not doing themselves or anyone else any favors.
It may be time for us to start holding people to account for all the bs they promote. Time to say, fine, you are quite sure about all this. Now tell us how life is for you as a Noble being on the first, second, third and fourth path. We have many questions for such as you and we can benefit from your direct understanding. If you can not respond from this POV in honesty and in complete conformity to the Dhamma then you are deluding yourself, doing great harm to many others and being entirely disrespectful to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
As disciples of the Buddha, these kinds of efforts to refute His Noble gifts to all beings is the highest form of disrespect a self declared follower could possibly demonstrate. I am going to continue to say so and maybe it is time to start kicking butt and taking names as well. Such people should not be recognized as followers of the BuddhaDhamma, whoever they may be in this world.
If you don't like my post, I am sorry, you can stick to other forums. From what I understand, it seems clear that this is the correct subforum to post such a view.3. The "Free-for-all" forum may not be suitable for everyone
The purpose of this sub-forum is to openly permit important and challenging discussion on the Dhamma. By establishing a particular forum as a Free-For-All, albeit one where members must still be nice to each other, we aim to keep other areas of the site free from vociferous debate. We have attempted to establish an appropriate time and place for everything, with well established boundaries that will be enforced. Therefore, if you deem that vociferous debate is not conducive to your practice, you have the opportunity to fine tune your experience at Dhamma Wheel by sticking to forums better aligned with your practice that will be protected from such intense debate.
My intent of such a post is not to demean or try to put down Buddhism in any form. If people care to read what I say in the links above, in the third one I even admit I can't refute rebirth. I agree I should have put a question mark after it as "Rebirth Refuted?"
I think it is important for all of us to go ahead and reassess teachings and consider for ourselves whether it is really useful and makes sense. I try to give, what I believe, arguments that put into question a strict literal interpretation of rebirth.
To me ignorance is to live your life without really examining things and simply believing them on faith or what one has been brought up with.
This to me is a very scary statement. I hope you don't intend to try to track me down and "kick my butt." Let me ask right now, are you threating my well-being? If so, then we have a major issue. It is interesting that someone who supposidly is a real follower of the Buddha should resort to such harmful expressions.I am going to continue to say so and maybe it is time to start kicking butt and taking names as well.
Another question, who are you to take names and start "kicking butt"?
From my experience in life, the people who have caused the worst destruction and human misery are those who are so fundamentalist in there beliefs that they are unwilling to question and reassess what they believe and in turn refuse to accept others opinions and automatically brand them "heretics" and unbelievers.
I have tried to argue a particular point, and if people disagree then great. But please read what I have said and point out the failures in my arguments.
Thanks.
--DarkDream