YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Nyana » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:02 am


User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby legolas » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:05 pm

Re : previous posts concerning piti. I actually understand it better in my own practice as gladness or pamojja (a mental quality ) giving rise to piti (a physical and mental experience). Perhaps the mental part of piti could be likened to heightened gladness. The piti then giving rise to sukha a physical & mental experience. Like I said this is just how I understand it within my own practice. I would be interested if anybody could provide sutta evidence that piti is actually only a mental quality as described in the commentaries.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Nyana » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:53 am


User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby legolas » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:40 am

Yes, its definitely a personal internal map. As far as experiences go for the "sutta jhana" I would hesitatingly suggest that most peoples experience follows a similar path, it is the labels we use and how we relate to the experiences that differ.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Nyana » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:36 pm


Shonin
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Shonin » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:04 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby Nyana » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:02 pm

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Shonin.

And thanks to everyone else who replied. There were many, many thoughtful posts (too many names to mention each member individually).

:buddha1:

All the best,

Geoff

appamada
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby appamada » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:42 pm

Hope to make the time to read this later...:)

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1720
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby gavesako » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:37 pm

Somebody wrote "Jhanas Solved" here:

http://dreamwhitehorses.blogspot.com/20 ... art-i.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

User avatar
IanAnd
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 am
Location: the deserts of Arizona

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby IanAnd » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:44 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:10 pm

It is unfortunate that the idea that the 4 jhanas are a mnemonic is even floating about. In my experience the phenomena comes before the lable- ie - there are 4 separate labels because there are 4 distinct states of consciousness which the yogi absorbs into quite suddenly. There is a distinct and sharp demarcation between one jhana and the next.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

darvki
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:20 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby darvki » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:17 pm


rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:28 pm

Hi darvki,

To attain jhana it takes about 3, 1 hour sitting a day, for a lay person, over period of weeks and months. Often this difficult for lay people (understably). However this should not be taken to mean that after having tried with less amounts of viriya-determination, the solution, is to alter the meaning of the Pali terms to suit a more leisurely approach to the matter. It is 'pseudo-gold' like this which will destroy the Buddha's teaching.

'There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world.[1]

"It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property that makes the true Dhamma disappear.[2] It's worthless people who arise right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear. The true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a boat sinks all at once.

"These five downward-leading qualities tend to the confusion and disappearance of the true Dhamma. Which five? There is the case where the monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers live without respect, without deference, for the Teacher. They live without respect, without deference, for the Dhamma... for the Sangha... for the Training... for concentration. These are the five downward-leading qualities that tend to the confusion and disappearance of the true Dhamma.



Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

darvki
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:20 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby darvki » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:31 am

Matheesha,

Calling it "pseudo-gold" in an effort to illustrate a point to me is pointless because there is no "real gold" for it to contrast with, as I see it. The absorptions may be a widely accpted idea, but to me the suttas do not explicitly describe jhanas as such. It's up for interpretation and simply restating the counterargument isn't going to have any effect.

Also, practice does not involve any less viriya without the absorptions, nor is it any more "leisurely". Absorption states have actually always struck me as a leisurely solution, which is why I was predisoposed to agree with the article.

The reasons that you have quoted these suttas are not clear to me. I can only assume that you think I am speaking counterfeit Dhamma and that I don't have proper respect for a teacher, the Dhamma, Sangha, training or concentration.

I see you put "concentration" in bold. Absorption states and concentration are not absolutely synonymous, if that's what you're getting at.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:32 pm

Hi Darviki

I didnt call it psuedo/fools gold - the Buddha did.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

darvki
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:20 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby darvki » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:40 am

The Buddha called counterfeit dhamma fools gold and there is nothing that concretely states that my view is counterfeit dhamma.

I'm not trying to say that your stance is wrong and that my stance is right. There isn't enough scriptural evidence that can satisfy proof for that, or for that matter satisfy that you are right and I am wrong. This is the point I'm trying to make. All you're doing is accusing me of being incorrect without any solid evidence. As such, I'd just like us to stop pretending that this exchange actually has the capacity to lead anywhere. This discussion board deserves actual debates that are reinforced with references rather than exchanges that simply involve repetitive statements of views.

My aplogies if any of this comes off as unwarrantedly accusatory. I'm just telling it as I see it.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:30 am


rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:31 pm

Hi Darvki

Well if the source (the tipitaka) cannot prove it, and if we are of the opinion that all other commentaries have the tipitaka as the root what use are other references/sources in resolving this?

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

darvki
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:20 am

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby darvki » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:19 am

None. I don't think this discussion has the potential for any real resolution. That's my point.

I don't understand why you chose to debate views on absorptions. No harm done, obviously, but one can't refute an intepretation with another when the very existence of the different interpretations comes from a lack of utter explicitness in the source.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:38 pm

Hi darvki,

I think it is weakness of Buddhism that it is tolerant and 'anything goes' attitude is allowed to ferment, often at the cost of the teachings becoming something other than what was intended. Historically it has been shown that this is one of the leading causes of destruction of Buddhism in lands where it existed previously.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


Return to “Samatha Bhāvana”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine