Was the life of the Buddha exaggerated?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Alan,

Some of these are certainly freakish (if taken literally)...

The 32 Signs of the Great Man
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... _great_man" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

[Paññāsikhara]

Greetings bhante,

And viz "folklore", see the above post. Not quite as easy an issue to deal with as many think.

Indeed. Even the oldest strata of known texts contain the depiction of events which if taken literally would be difficult for most people to accept nowadays.

Well, it's more complicated than that, because part of the whole criteria for what Witnernitz, Pande, etc. took as "the oldest strata of texts" was based on certain assumptions in the first place. That is the very point that Gethin is making - half of it is a circular argument!

"Gotama Buddha: A Biography Based on the Most Reliable Texts"

It's nice to know that such a book exists, though I suspect the title might ruffle a few feathers.

Metta,
Retro.

Yeah, I had a look at the book not so long ago, and thought it very interesting. Orders from Amazon should be arriving any day.

[Hanzze]

Greetings Alan,

Some of these are certainly freakish (if taken literally)...

The 32 Signs of the Great Man
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... _great_man" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

haha, no that was from the freaky fishermans. But yesterday I tought of to paint one image out of this specification.

[alan]

Did I ever say anything like that? 32 signs of the so-and so?

[tiltbillings]

.

"Gotama Buddha: A Biography Based on the Most Reliable Texts"

It's nice to know that such a book exists, though I suspect the title might ruffle a few feathers.

It depends upon what is meant by "Most Reliable Texts." He takes rather late, hagiographical texts into account.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

OK then, perhaps it's just my definition of what that term entails which might ruffle a few feathers.



Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Tilt,

OK then, perhaps it's just my definition of what that term entails which might ruffle a few feathers.



Metta,
Retro.

I shrug my shoulders. We can try to derive a "life" of the Buddha from the Pali suttas, and I doubt the Chinese Agamas would add much to that, but once you start with the later stuff, it seems to be a whole different ball game.

[alan]

Nothing pisses me off more than a bad hagiographical text.
Damn, I hate that!

[tiltbillings]

Nothing pisses me off more than a bad hagiographical text.
Damn, I hate that!

Best advice: don't read 'em.

[alan]

Just a joke.

[cooran]

Greetings Alan,

Some of these are certainly freakish (if taken literally)..

Hello Retro,

The 32 Marks of a Great Man are not supposed to be taken literally as physical qualities, but have always been seen to represent characteristics of the Great Being.
THIRTY TWO MARKS OF A GREAT MAN

No. Marks ( Lakkhana ) Significance

1 Well-supported feet. Firm undertaking
2 Wheels arise beneath the sole of the feet. Great retinues
3 The heels are projecting. Long life
4 The fingers and toes are long. Long life
5 The hands and feet are soft and tender. Well-united with people
6 The hands and feet are net-like. Well-united with people
7 The ankles are raised like conch shells. Becomes the best
8 The lower part of the leg is like an antelope's. Gets the best things quickly
9 He can touch and rub around his knees with both palms,
while standing, and without bending. Great wealth
10 The part which should be concealed by garments, is
covered by a bag. Many sons
11 The skin shines like gold. Get finest furnishings and garments
12 Subtle skin: dirt and sweat do not stick to his body. Great wisdom
13 Single hairs arise, one to each pore. Well-respected
14 The hair pointing upwards; dark, black in colour,
turning in rings to the right. Becomes the best
15 The frame is straight like Brahma. Long life
16 There are seven outflows on his hands,
on his feet, at the tips of the shoulders,
and at the top of the back. Obtains excellent foods
17 The upper part of the body is lion-like. No loss
18 The hollow between his shoulders is filled. No loss
19 The body is proportionate: the body is as long
as the span of the arms. Great wealth
20 The shoulders are evenly rounded . No loss
21 He releases the highest of tastes. Very healthy
22 The jaw is lion-like. He cannot be overthrown.
23 There are forty teeth. The assemblies cannot be divided.
24 The teeth are even. Pure retinues
25 The teeth are undivided. The assemblies cannot be divided.
26 The visible teeth are very white. Pure retinues
27 A mighty tongue. His words are heeded.
28 The voice of Brahma and also resembles
the song of a karavika bird. His words are heeded.
29 The eyes are very blue. Attractive look
30 The Eyelashes are like those of a cow. Attractive look
31 The filament between the eyebrows
is white like soft cotton. Well-respected
32 The head is turban-crowned. Many followers

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/32marks2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[tiltbillings]

Just a joke.

I know, and the fun of it is to give a serious answer to it Jokes all around.

[retrofuturist]

Greeting Chris,

Yes, personally I concur with regards to the intention of the marks, yet the suttas do sometimes speak of them in a literal way.

Consider this from DN 3 - http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/D ... a/dn-3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then, descending from his lodging, the Lord started to walk up and down, and Ambattha did likewise. And as he walked along with the Lord, Ambattha looked out for the thirty-two marks of a Great Man on the Lord’s body. And he could see all of them except for two. He was in doubt and perplexity about two of these marks : he could not make up his mind or be certain about the sheathed genitals or the large tongue.

And the Lord, being aware of his doubts, effected by his psychic power that Ambattha could see his sheated genitals, and then, sticking out his tongue, he reached out to lick both ears and both nostrils, and then covered the whole circle of his forehead with his tongue. Then Ambattha thought : “The ascetic Gotama is equipped with all the thirty-two marks of a Great Man, complete and with none missing.” Then he said to the Lord : “Reverend Gotama, may I go now? I have much business, much to do.” “Ambattha, do what you now think fit.” So Ambattha got back into his chariot drawn by mares and departed

Metta,
Retro.

[Paññāsikhara]

I think one of our (modern homo sapien buddhologist type) biggest problems is being really opaque to a lot of idiomatic expressions in any form of old text. Sometimes we think that "translating literally" will best express the meaning. But a quick look at any language will show that there are a large number of expressions and phrases that are never meant in the literal sense, and only an idiot or somebody ignorant of the language would so read them.

Thanks for the pointers on those two vols, Tilt. The couple of parts I have flipped through did indicate some degree of useful philological approach, at least a comparison between some texts, cut the non-common material and keep the common parts. Simple stuff like that (for what it's worth).

I thought that they would mainly be useful simply because they collate a lot of relevant material together, rather than having it dispersed throughout the canon. May be useful for future Uni courses on the life of the "historical" (sic) Buddha.

Still, those comments I posted by Gethin are worth thinking about, though. It's easy to fall into circular arguments in this sort of thing. Very few scholars present criteria that don't have this problem, or at least tend towards it.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Sometimes we think that "translating literally" will best express the meaning. But a quick look at any language will show that there are a large number of expressions and phrases that are never meant in the literal sense, and only an idiot or somebody ignorant of the language would so read them.

You're right on the money there, bhante.

Metta,
Retro.