Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:55 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:08 pm

Hi Satori,

Since TiltBillings hasn't got back to you with references yet, I suggest reading:
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19312
This book is easy to read and contains some informed discussion of the Brahminical thought that the Buddha was interacting with.

Mike
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:15 pm

A brahman was considered accomplished if he knew (i.e. was able to recite from memory and to explain) the three Vedas.

For the Buddha, a person was spiritually accomplished if he has realized the Three Knowledges (tevijja); arising and passing away of beings according to their kama, and the knowledge of the destruction of the defilements (Anguttara Nikaya I.165).

The Vedas are believed by Hindus to be an eternal (sanātana) revelation (śruti) of divine origin (apauruṣeya). Those who deny the authority of the Vedas are said to be 'impure' (nāstaka). The Buddha said that nothing is eternal, he considered revelation to be an unreliable means of knowledge and he rejected the idea of a supreme god as unconvincing. He also cast serious doubts on the claim that the authors of the Vedas had divine knowledge. Once a brahman asked him what he thought of the belief that the authors of the Vedas had direct experience of the divine. The Buddha replied, 'What do you think about this? Is there one brahman who says, “I know. I see. This alone is true, all else is false?”

No Gotama.

Did any of the teachers of the brahmans or even their teachers going back through seven generations ever say that?

No Gotama.

Then what of ancient brahman sages who composed the Vedic hymns, who chanted, uttered and compiled them and which the brahmans of today still chant and recite, just repeating what has been repeated and chanting what has been chanted? Did they ever say “We know. We see. This alone is true, all else is false?”

No Gotama. They did not.

Imagine a string of blind men each touching each other. The first one does not see, the middle one does not see and neither does the last. The claim of the brahmans is like this. The first one does not see, the middle one does not see and neither does the last. So it seems that the faith of the brahmans turns out to be groundless (M.II,169-70).

The Buddha also rejected the practice of animal sacrifices, the efficacy of rituals and the caste system, all of which are legitimized by the Vedas. Those who say that the Buddha was a Hindu or that Buddhism is a reformed version of Hinduism are seriously misinformed.


http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Vedas

http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=441
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:33 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:03 pm

Hanzze wrote:Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas? = Did Lord Buddha accept or reject the authority of the vedas?
:-) thanks


It seems obvious to me that the Buddha implicitly denied the authority of the Vedas.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:09 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:35 am

Satori wrote:Did he?


He rejected their authority.

But he used the term "tevijja", which originally has the same meaning as "three Vedas (knowledges)" and one who knows them, to mean instead of a brahmin who has studied and memorized the three Vedas, but rather a bhikkhu who has realized the three knowledges of past life recollection, the arising and ceasing of living beings, and the destruction of outflows (mental impurities).

In Gombrich's terms, he "ethicized" the idea of "Veda" (Skt; Pali = vijja) to mean knowledge of mental purity, rather than memorized of a text.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:45 am

Satori wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Reforming? No. What we call Hindhuism, as exemplified by such as the Bhagavad Gita, is pretty much a something that arose in response to Buddhism. The Buddha rejected the basis of the Brahmanism that existed at his time.


Well, Lord Buddha , seems to have taken ideas from Hinduism, in the pali canon , there is mentioning of Hindu deities, such as Yama. There is also mentioning in rebirth and karma , which I thoughted was Hindu ideas.


The very idea of "hindu" is a modern invention, a term coined by the British I believe, for everything East of the Sindhu River (which now splits Pakistan and India). Even the word "India" is from this name. So, to use it to refer to anything at the time of the buddha is an anachronism (ie. historical mistake).

Pre-Buddha, there were two main cultures: In the west, from the Sindhu to the Yamuna, it was Brahmanic culture, based on the Vedas (first three, and a fourth added later). In the East, from the Yamuna to the mouths of the Ganges, it was Magadha culture, which religiously speaking was Sramanic (not Brahmanic). At the time of the Buddha, up to a century or two afterwards, these two cultures merged, especially under Asoka's reign.

After the Vedas, just before the Buddha, we see the Upanisads as religious literature. A couple of these mention few basic ideas on rebirth and karma, whereas the Vedas do not. However, we are still not sure if these couple of Upanisads are before or after the Buddha. In Sramana religious thought, before the Buddha, there is the idea of karma and rebirth, eg. in Jainism, and Ajivikism. However, these are based purely on action, rather than the ethical content of action.

After the Buddha's and Jaina's time, these ideas influenced the western Brahmanic thought, especially interpretation of the Upanisads, the Mahabharata, and the Bhagavad-gita (which is part of the Mahabharata). So, actually, the influence goes the other way, from Buddhism into Brahmanism, and then later this gets called "Hinduism".

The Buddha said our actions affect our rebirth in the rounds of rebirth.


Yes. As above.

I also thought that both Buddhists and Hindus believe there are six realms of existance.


It was only after the Buddha and the Jaina that non-sramana teachings slowly took up these ideas. It starts kicking in during the Bhagavad-gita, which post-dates the Buddha.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:31 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:47 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:The very idea of "hindu" is a modern invention, a term coined by the British I believe, for everything East of the Sindhu River (which now splits Pakistan and India). Even the word "India" is from this name. So, to use it to refer to anything at the time of the buddha is an anachronism (ie. historical mistake).

After the Vedas, just before the Buddha, we see the Upanisads as religious literature. A couple of these mention few basic ideas on rebirth and karma, whereas the Vedas do not. However, we are still not sure if these couple of Upanisads are before or after the Buddha. In Sramana religious thought, before the Buddha, there is the idea of karma and rebirth, eg. in Jainism, and Ajivikism. However, these are based purely on action, rather than the ethical content of action.

After the Buddha's and Jaina's time, these ideas influenced the western Brahmanic thought, especially interpretation of the Upanisads, the Mahabharata, and the Bhagavad-gita (which is part of the Mahabharata). So, actually, the influence goes the other way, from Buddhism into Brahmanism, and then later this gets called "Hinduism".

It was only after the Buddha and the Jaina that non-sramana teachings slowly took up these ideas. It starts kicking in during the Bhagavad-gita, which post-dates the Buddha.



Dear Bhante

Hope you'll throw in the Puranas as well, since so much of devotional "Hinduisms" today owe much of their provenance to this class of literature, rather than the more abstract stuff in the Upanishads.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:51 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,

Since TiltBillings hasn't got back to you with references yet, I suggest reading:
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19312
This book is easy to read and contains some informed discussion of the Brahminical thought that the Buddha was interacting with.

Mike


A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:02 am

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,

Since TiltBillings hasn't got back to you with references yet, I suggest reading:
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19312
This book is easy to read and contains some informed discussion of the Brahminical thought that the Buddha was interacting with.

Mike


A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.

Yes, sure, I didn't feel convinced by all of his conclusions, but clearly he brings detailed knowledge of the Brahminical background which one can draw one's own conclusions about. Arguably, he points out some possibilities that both ancient and modern commentators missed because they didn't have a detailed understanding of that background.

Mike
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:06 am

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, sure, I didn't feel convinced by all of his conclusions, but clearly he brings detailed knowledge of the Brahminical background which one can draw one's own conclusions about. Arguably, he points out some possibilities that both ancient and modern commentators missed because they didn't have a detailed understanding of that background.
I think Gombrich is spot with that, whatever else one may think about what he has to say.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby nowheat » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:28 am

Sylvester wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich

A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.


Thanissaro Bhikkhu in "Mind Like Fire Unbound" http://www.archive.org/details/mindlikefire00thanmiss also interprets "upadana" as using the Vedic understanding of fire. This seems to say that "clinging" and "fuel" are part of the same mechanism in the Vedic understanding of fire. That fire clings to its fuel, that fuel is stuck to the fire.

:namaste:
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:20 am

Sylvester wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,

Since TiltBillings hasn't got back to you with references yet, I suggest reading:
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19312
This book is easy to read and contains some informed discussion of the Brahminical thought that the Buddha was interacting with.

Mike


A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.


I don't think that he intends all appearances of the term to necessarily have this meaning.

By the relationship between Prakrits and Sanskrit, it is quite possible and not so uncommon that two different Skt roots can end up as the same Prakrit morphology. eg. that both the roots for grasping and fuel can end up as upadana. In this case, one must look at specific examples as to which has which root.

Moreover, some non-Pali traditions also read the "upadana" in "upadana-skandha / upadanakhana" as "fuel", so it also has historical precedents to back it up.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:22 am

I also recommend looking into the article by Jurewicz that Gombrich cites in his book.
In particular, it shows how the whole Vedic notion of "fire" works, which is kind of radically different from playing around with these terms and ideas in English.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:43 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Moreover, some non-Pali traditions also read the "upadana" in "upadana-skandha / upadanakhana" as "fuel", so it also has historical precedents to back it up.


Dear Bhante

Many thanks. So, would these non-Pali sources read "upadana" as "fuel" only in compounds (as above), but as "clinging" in stem form? I would be interested to see how these sources treat upadana when it is is used in the same passage as both a stem and in a compound, eg the Culavedalla Sutta, MN 44 when discussing the relationship between "upadana" and "pancupadanakkhandha".

:namaste:
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:26 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Individual » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:16 pm

Satori wrote:Did he?

The Buddha explicitly rejected the Vedas in this sutta:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html

Brahmin, the three Vedas appointed by the brahmins is quite different to the three Vedas appointed in the discipline of the Noble Ones.

The Vedas during the Buddha's time was largely just a bunch of hymns and rituals. Some of the Hindu mythology therein seemed to have had an influence on Buddhist mythology, but the Buddha did not recognize Brahmin authority, worship the devas, or perform Vedic rituals.

Much of Hinduism today is based on the later texts added to Hindu literature, such as the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita, not part of the Vedas, but still considered sacred. The later texts of Hinduism seem to show influence from the Sramanas (including the Buddha), although they are supposed to be merely interpretations of the poetry and prose of the original three Vedas.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:21 am

Sylvester wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:
Moreover, some non-Pali traditions also read the "upadana" in "upadana-skandha / upadanakhana" as "fuel", so it also has historical precedents to back it up.


Dear Bhante

Many thanks. So, would these non-Pali sources read "upadana" as "fuel" only in compounds (as above), but as "clinging" in stem form? I would be interested to see how these sources treat upadana when it is is used in the same passage as both a stem and in a compound, eg the Culavedalla Sutta, MN 44 when discussing the relationship between "upadana" and "pancupadanakkhandha".

:namaste:


One would have to make an extensive analysis of some 1000s of pages of text to answer this question. I haven't done that, so cannot say.
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