Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

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Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby being5 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:40 pm

One of the four preconditions for reaching stream-entry is association with the noble ones.
Seems that many lay people reached stream-entry in the Buddha's time - presumably they associated with the Buddha and the Sangha.
But what does this mean for us in daily lay life in the 21st Century?

What does "association" mean - daily contact, weekly, being on dhammawheel, having a teacher who is a "noble one"?
Does it mean association with monastics or are friends and family who are good people by ordinary societal standards but not even Buddhists "noble ones". Probably not?
What about those who go off and meditate in solitude and don't associate with anyone?

Are any of you associating with "noble ones"?

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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Hanzze » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:34 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Ben » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:06 am

Hi being5,

Association with noble ones is a pre-condition but not a necessary pre-condition, if my memory serves me well.
A noble one is someone who has attained to one of the four fruition states, ie: a sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami or an arahant.

What about those who go off and meditate in solitude and don't associate with anyone?

Indeed! One of the occassions for realization to occur is whilst in meditation.

Are any of you associating with "noble ones"?

My teacher could be, but to be honest,I really don't know. To ask is considered rather rude.
And if anyone volunteers that he or she is an ariya, except if it is a very close friend and that person confides something to you about something they've experienced, you can bet your bottom dollar the person is either mistaken, delusional or a charletain.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Individual » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:19 am

Ben wrote:Hi being5,

Association with noble ones is a pre-condition but not a necessary pre-condition, if my memory serves me well.
A noble one is someone who has attained to one of the four fruition states, ie: a sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami or an arahant.

What about those who go off and meditate in solitude and don't associate with anyone?

Indeed! One of the occassions for realization to occur is whilst in meditation.

Are any of you associating with "noble ones"?

My teacher could be, but to be honest,I really don't know. To ask is considered rather rude.
And if anyone volunteers that he or she is an ariya, except if it is a very close friend and that person confides something to you about something they've experienced, you can bet your bottom dollar the person is either mistaken, delusional or a charletain.
kind regards

Ben

You could also mention:

  • Sammasambuddha: Enlightened by one's own effort and teaching Dhamma to others (i.e., Siddattha Gotama... Man, that's SOME Buddha!)
  • Paccekabuddha: Enlightened by one's own effort, but living a secluded life due to an inability or no intention to teach others (It's purely speculative who they might be talking about here)
  • Savakabuddha: Enlightened by direct contact with a Buddha.

The last group, Savaka, includes people who knew the Buddha directly, but also people who hear the Buddha's teachings (the Tipitaka).

Did I say it right? Was it relevant?
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Ben » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:30 am

Individual wrote:Did I say it right? Was it relevant?


Yes, Individual! Excellent! Two of them are good examples of where realization occurs in the absence of other noble ones. The other example of a Savaka, one who attains realization while listening to a discourse given by a living Buddha was dependent on the Buddha being present and sadly those days are over. In fact, the early Pali name for a disciples was 'Savaka' which means 'hearer'.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:52 am

being5 wrote:One of the four preconditions for reaching stream-entry is association with the noble ones.


Do you have the reference handy? If I recall correctly, it may have mentioned "association with superior, knowledgeable people" not necessarily noble ones, but I'm not 100 percent sure.

Individual wrote:You could also mention:

  • Sammasambuddha: Enlightened by one's own effort and teaching Dhamma to others (i.e., Siddattha Gotama... Man, that's SOME Buddha!)
  • Paccekabuddha: Enlightened by one's own effort, but living a secluded life due to an inability or no intention to teach others (It's purely speculative who they might be talking about here)
  • Savakabuddha: Enlightened by direct contact with a Buddha.


Also the Arahant, who does not necessarily have any contact with any of the above; for example Sanghamitta and other arahants who were born well after the paranibbana of the Buddha.
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby being5 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:50 am

thanks for the replies.

David as for a reference I read this in "The Jhanas and the Lay Disciple" by Bhikkhu Bodhi

"The Sutta Piṭaka mentions four preconditions for reaching the path, called sotāpattiyaṅga, factors of stream-entry, namely: association with superior people (i.e., with the noble ones);"

http://what-buddha-taught.net/Books10/B ... ple%20.htm

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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby cooran » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:31 am

Hello all,

This might be of interest:

Stream Entry - Part 1: The Way to Stream-entry by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Contents
Introduction
-Association with People of Integrity
-Listening to the True Dhamma
-Appropriate Attention
-Practice in Accordance with the Dhamma


Mindfulness & Alertness
Restraint of the Senses
The Three Forms of Right Conduct
The Four Frames of Reference
The Seven Factors for Awakening
Clear Knowing & Release

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html

with metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:54 pm

Not To Associate With The Unwise Is Most Blissful.

Fools or ignorant people not only injure themselves, but also those around them. If we associate with them, we are apt to follow their ways and so harm ourselves mentally as well as bodily, because all troubles or fear arise from ignorance or foolishness. Even if we do not practise their methods, the mre fact of associating with them will harm our reputation; in the same way that a banana leaf is contaminated if it is used to wrap up a piece of rotten fish or meat. The leaf is dirty and smelly even after the fish or rotten meat is thrown away.


not a problem when you put some plastic between

To Associate With the Wise Is Most Blissful.

By wise men we mean men who are rich with virtuousness and all good deeds and thoughts, i.e. men who bodily abstain from killing, stealing and committing adultery; in their speech they refrain from these vices, are free from craving through ignorance. To associate with these wise ones, is one of the causes of bliss. By doing so we are elevating ourselves. For instance, if we take a piece of dry banana leaf and wrap up some sweet-scented flowers, the leaf is impregnated with the scent even after the flowers are taken away. In the same way, if we associate with the wise ones, i.e. well disciplined and meritorious people, our name will be enhanced.
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:15 pm

In this context I would consider association with noble ones to mean having dhamma instructions from noble teachers. Only someone who has attained the stream will know how to lead them there (better to disregard any watered down interpretation of the word 'noble/ariya' in this regard). We may not know who they are. But there can be some clues. Ven Mahasi Sayadaw, now passed away researched extensively into the suttas as well as the commentaries into the vipassana path leading to stream entry. 'Associating' with teachers of this lineage (and they have not been factory produced so hard to find) or going to their centre in Burma and doing a 6 week retreat maybe well worth doing, atleast once a lifetime. I'm not saying other teachers do not teach it, but in my experience this method is the most likely to produce the required effect. They may not be the most user friendly or cuddly but those qualities do not mean that they will take you to stream entry. It will just make you feel warm and happy inside. But then you can get that from a blanket and a hot chocalate. If you want stream entry, you will need to prepare yourself and there will have to be some discipline/dedication (all dirty words?) This is the case in any great thing worth achieving.

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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:12 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:05 pm

Hi Hanzze

The difference between Pacceka/Sammasam ..Buddhas and arahanths is that the former are self taught. The latter learn the dhamma through the teachings of sammasambuddhas.

with metta

RYB
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:32 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:31 pm

Hanzze wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Hi Hanzze

The difference between Pacceka/Sammasam ..Buddhas and arahanths is that the former are self taught. The latter learn the dhamma through the teachings of sammasambuddhas.

with metta

RYB

Dear RYB,

So they are only noble (in that context) after be trained. How to know if they are already trained?



Dear Hanzze

Yes, that is a difficult one. How do we know a potential teacher is a stream entrant or higher? I believe if a teacher teaches a meditative path (as the noble eightfold path is meditative towards the end), and teaches the depth of unsatisfactoriness (not just popular 'blissed out' dhamma) and the the complete cessation of unsatisfactoriness (as the void of nibbana as a non-experienced reality, not just superficial development of meditation/wholesomeness), then such a teacher is likely to be 'noble'- ariya. We might know this from his/her talks or writings. But then we would have to follow this teacher's teaching and see for ourselves. The final proof of the pudding is in the eating.

with metta

RYB
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Re: Association with the noble ones, precondition for stream-ent

Postby Hanzze » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:47 pm

_/\_
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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