... pe ...

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

... pe ...

Postby nowheat » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:20 pm

I am wanting to take a closer look at the first sermon, which I have in an English translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi on page 1844 of his Connected Discourses of the Buddha (A Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya). Specifically I am looking at the second truth which in this edition reads:

"...this..is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."


I went off seeking the Pali words for "renewed existence" as well as "existence" and "extermination" in the last bit, but when I poke around in the words in there I get nothing that corresponds to "renewed existence" and "existence" and "non-existence" at all.

What does appear where the missing words are is "... pe ..." which I find means "a passage has been omitted here" and this appears in every version of the Pali that I can find. I am sure I'm missing a chunk of knowledge about what's out there and how this is done so I am hoping y'all can illuminate this for me.

I am sure it cannot be that we get to put any description of the Four Noble Truths we want into that spot. Is it likely that every version I've found has ...pe... but there is some source I am missing that actually has the full text in it? I understand the use of ...pe... to collapse down text when it is repeating nearby text, but the four truths are not listed earlier in the sutta, so I am mystified.

Thanks in advance.
:namaste:
nowheat
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:42 am

Re: ... pe ...

Postby Sobeh » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:48 pm

From here for reference:

‘‘‘Idaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasacca’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pariññeyya’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe…pe… udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pariññāta’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.
User avatar
Sobeh
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US

Re: ... pe ...

Postby nowheat » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:38 am

Sobeh wrote:From here for reference:

‘‘‘Idaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasacca’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pariññeyya’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe…pe… udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pariññāta’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.


Yes, that is exactly as I have it too, and the ...pe... hides what I am looking for. So my question could be stated this way: How did Bhikkhu Bodhi know what to put where ...pe... is in his translation? I cannot credit that he just picked his favorite stock passage?

:namaste:
nowheat
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:42 am

Re: ... pe ...

Postby lojong1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:47 am

Sobeh, I think your Pali is from the next paragraphs of the sutta:
"“’Suffering, as a noble truth, is this.’ Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before. ’This suffering, as a noble truth, can be diagnosed.’ Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before. ’This suffering, as a noble truth, has been diagnosed.’ Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before."

Nowheat's passage: "...this..is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."
is this: "Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ— yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ— kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā."

Suttacentral.net gives the Pali often with multiple English versions in the same place (5 here).

In MN, Bodhi only uses "...Pe..." for passages that have appeared earlier in the same book, though not necessarily in the same sutta (referenced with a note). Sometimes you can track down the original location using the index or glossary when they give pages of occurrence. I'd guess his use of 'pe' might also be mentioned in his preface or introduction.

The underlined words are what you wanted?...Ponobbhavika for sure is discussed in 'the great rebirth debate.
Last edited by lojong1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: ... pe ...

Postby lojong1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:51 am

‘‘‘Idaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasacca’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pariññeyya’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe…pe… udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pariññāta’nti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.

Here, ...pe... is giving everything between 'pubbe' and the last 'udapadi' of the previous line.
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: ... pe ...

Postby yuttadhammo » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:59 am

... pe ... is from the original Pali. It is short for "peyyāla". From the PED:


Peyyāla

Peyyāla (nt.?) [a Māgadhism for pariyāya, so Kern, Toev. s. v. after Trenckner, cp. BSk. piyāla and peyāla MVastu iii.202, 219] repetition, succession, formula way of saying, phrase (=pariyāya 5) Vism 46 (˚mukha beginning of discourse), 351 (id. and bahu˚ -- tanti having many discourses or repetitions), 411 (˚pāḷi a row of successions or etceteras); VvA 117 (pāḷi˚ vasena "because of the successive Pāli text"). -- Very freq. in abridged form, where we would say "etc.," to indicate that a passage has be to repeated (either from preceding context, or to be supplied from memory, if well known) The literal meaning would be "here (follows) the formula (pariyāya)." We often find pa for pe, e. g A v.242, 270, 338, 339, 355; sometimes pa+pe combd e. g. S v.466. -- As pe is the first syllable of peyyāla so la is the last and is used in the same sense; the variance is according to predilection of certain MSS.; la is found e. g. S v.448, 267 sq.; or as v. l. of pe: A v.242, 243 354; or la+pe combd: S v.464, 466. -- On syllable pe Trenckner, Notes 66, says: "The sign of abridgment pe, or as it is written in Burmese copies, pa, means peyyāla which is not an imperative ʻ insert, fill up the gap, ʼ but a substantive, peyyālo or peyyālaŋ, signifying a phrase to be repeated over & over again. I consider it a popular corruption of the synonymous pariyāya, passing through *payyāya, with -- eyy -- for -- ayy -- , like seyyā, Sk. śayyā." See also Vin. Texts i.291; Oldenberg, K.Z. 35, 324.


So, it is used to omit unnecessary repetition, and no, you can't just put whatever you want in there :) ... it is only used when the context makes clear that it is a repeated passage. In your case:

pubbe…pe… udapādi.


means a repetition of the previous passage:

pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.


As lojong1 makes clear, the fact that you can't find the words you are looking for has nothing to do with the ... pe ... since it will never replace a passage that isn't clearly a repetition. You just need to work harder on the translating :)

"renewed existence" = punabbhava, or punobbhava in this case. The "u" become "o" through strengthening when you change it to "that which leads to renewed existence" with the "ika" suffix, thus "ponobbhavikā"

"existence" = bhava

and

"non-existence" = vibhava

Of course, it depends who is translating... other might translate these terms differently.
User avatar
yuttadhammo
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:03 pm
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: ... pe ...

Postby Sobeh » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:30 am

Sorry about the misleading passage, there.
User avatar
Sobeh
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US

Re: ... pe ...

Postby nowheat » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:07 am

Thank you, lojong, yes, those are the words I was looking for. I appear to have been looking in the wrong spot (further down the passage than I should have been).

And thanks for mentioning the great rebirth debate thread. I was going to ask my original question there (about what is meant by "clinging to non-existence") but I thought it would get lost in the two handfuls of tens of pages of posts. I started a separate thread for it in the same neighborhood, but am not feeling confident that anyone is confident in their own answers.

Thanks also to yuttadhammo for insight into usage and forms of the words.

I appreciate everyone's help. I knew I had to be missing something obvious.

:namaste:
nowheat
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:42 am


Return to Pali

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests