Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Dan74
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Dan74 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

I find that it's detrimental to mindfulness, both at the time, and it interrupts any cumulative mindfulness that may have been developed recently. I find that mindfulness needs to be a 'habit' and alcohol interrupts this.

That said, I don't find questions like "Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?" particularly helpful... I think it's more important to understand and address the (generally negative) causal relationship between alcohol consumption and Dhamma practice. Through understanding the relationship, lifestyle decisions can be made intelligently, rather than through resorting to techniques such as blind adherence, proclamations, generalisations, guilt and shame.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I guess it's a trite point but worth mentioning that what is important at one stage of practice may not be important at another.

For instance when one starts to meditate, silence is important. Later one can meditate even when it is not quiet. When we cultivate mindfulness doing things slowly may be helpful at the start, but not later. Likewise with alcohol, when a certain degree of clarity and wisdom has been achieved, alcohol would not really obstruct it
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Sobeh
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sobeh »

Dan74 wrote:Likewise with alcohol, when a certain degree of clarity and wisdom has been achieved, alcohol would not really obstruct it
The Sutta isn't off the top of my head, but I know the Buddha soundly corrects a monk who says something similar. It warrants finding, as the view here professed is wholly wrong, so I'll look it up in the meantime.
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Dan74
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Dan74 »

It may well be wrong, my friend.

But perhaps more important is this one:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Monks, there are these three forms of intoxication. Which three? Intoxication with youth, intoxication with health, intoxication with life.

"Drunk with the intoxication of youth, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person engages in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct, he — on the break-up of the body, after death — reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

"Drunk with the intoxication of health, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person engages in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct, he — on the break-up of the body, after death — reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

"Drunk with the intoxication of life, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person engages in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct, he — on the break-up of the body, after death — reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

"Drunk with the intoxication of youth, a monk leaves the training and returns to the lower life. Drunk with the intoxication of health, a monk leaves the training and returns to the lower life. Drunk with the intoxication of life, a monk leaves the training and returns to the lower life."
'Subject to birth, subject to aging, subject to death, run-of-the-mill people are repelled by those who suffer from that to which they are subject. And if I were to be repelled by beings subject to these things, it would not be fitting for me, living as they do.' As I maintained this attitude — knowing the Dhamma without acquisitions — I overcame all intoxication with health, youth, & life as one who sees renunciation as rest. For me, energy arose, Unbinding was clearly seen. There's now no way I could partake of sensual pleasures. Having followed the holy life, I will not return.
Intoxications are many and varied.

Then again for many of us, Westerners, filled with the poison of self-loathing, doubt, feelings of inadequacy and inferiority, a nice small quaff of the drink of health, youth and life would be pretty beneficial, I think - the Middle Path.

Likewise for many of us filled with aversion, attachment to views, inhibitions and tensions, a small quaff of wine would help loosen up and become aware of these. Sila, after all, is not a matter of rules and regulations, but of wholesome intentions. Or at least, so it seems to me.
_/|\_
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

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The Buddha spoke quite clearly of the dangers of alcohol.
"There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in indulging in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness:

(i) loss of wealth,
(ii) increase of quarrels,
(iii) susceptibility to disease,
(iv) earning an evil reputation,
(v) shameless exposure of body,
(vi) weakening of intellect.

"Dice, women, liquor, dancing, singing, sleeping by day, sauntering at unseemly hours, evil companions, avarice — these nine causes ruin a man.

"Who plays with dice and drinks intoxicants, goes to women who are dear unto others as their own lives, associates with the mean and not with elders — he declines just as the moon during the waning half.

"Who is drunk, poor, destitute, still thirsty whilst drinking, frequents the bars, sinks in debt as a stone in water, swiftly brings disrepute to his family."Who by habit sleeps by day, and keeps late hours, is ever intoxicated, and is licentious, is not fit to lead a household life.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Bodom,

A nice quote there, demonstrating the causality involved.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

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More from the Buddha here:
"Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & priests. And this is the eighth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness."


:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

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5. "Bhikkhus. Ariyan disciples in this Religion reflect thus:"'All arahants, for as long as life lasts, have given up the taking of liquors and intoxicants, of that which intoxicates, causing carelessness. They are far from intoxicants.'"All of you have given up the taking of liquors and intoxicants. You abstain from drink which causes carelessness. For all of this day and night, in this manner, you will be known as having followed the arahants, and the Uposatha will have been observed by you. This is the fifth factor of the Uposatha. - AN 8.41
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Dan74
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Dan74 »

Good quotes, and yes "all arahats..."
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by bodom »

Dan74 wrote:Good quotes, and yes "all arahats..."
Hi Dan

What do you mean by "all Arahants"? Do you mean to say that you believe the Buddha is saying it is ok for non ariya to take intoxicants?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Dan74
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Dan74 »

I meant your last quote, bodom.
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

In the light of the OP:

"Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?"

The particularly wording and phrasing of the question will once again prompt me to make a statement that I'm becoming more and more accustomed to each and early time I talk about Buddhist ethics.

Buddhist ethics are not a form of "legal" system, wherein some actions are sanctioned and others punished, a kind of "may" or "may not".
They are normative statements about skillful actions leading to the goal.

One "can" do whatever one likes, quite frankly. (But that's not really the question, or the point, is it?)
However, one who has wisdom will do their best to uphold those normative forms of behavior, because they see the results both ways.
Yet, if they are unable to, the only recourse is to the results of this karma, and not some legal system of what they "may" or "may not" do (with possible subsequent reward or punishment).
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Well said, bhante.

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by bodom »

Dan74 wrote:I means you last quote, bodom.
Yes. As non ariya lay disciples (speaking for myself) we should strive to emulate the virtues and qualities of the Arahants and this is purpose that the Buddha recommended the undertaking of the eight precepts on Uposatha days for the laity.
"'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness — abstain from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness — abstain from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. - AN 3.70


:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sylvester »

Paññāsikhara wrote: Buddhist ethics are not a form of "legal" system, wherein some actions are sanctioned and others punished, a kind of "may" or "may not".
They are normative statements about skillful actions leading to the goal.
Dear Bhante

I agree with the 1st sentence.

But what did you have in mind by "normative"? Not a Kantian "categorical imperative", I trust, as it does seem to be mutually exclusive from the "hypothetical imperative" that are skillful actions.

I take it you are a "consequentialist" when it comes to Buddhist ethics?
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Dan74
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Dan74 »

bodom wrote:
Dan74 wrote:I means you last quote, bodom.
Yes. As non ariya lay disciples (speaking for myself) we should strive to emulate the virtues and qualities of the Arahants and this is purpose that the Buddha recommended the undertaking of the eight precepts on Uposatha days for the laity.
The Arahats are a source of inspiration to me, but I don't want to start walking and talking like my idea of an Arahat. More important I face where I am at this moment in time and deal with this guided by the Buddha's teaching.

Undertaking Uposatha can be useful, abstaining from alcohol 24/7 can be useful, lots of things can be useful.
_/|\_
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