Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Shonin
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Shonin »

In the Zen lineage in which I took precepts, this precept is viewed somewhat flexibly.

Of course heavy and/or very regular drinking (especially both) may create problems for one's practice, occasional/light drinking does not in my experience. In fact it can help relaxation. Also, there is a puritanical element that arises in Buddhism at times and I wonder whether being intoxicated by one's own purity and virtue is a bigger problem than an occasional drink.
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Sanghamitta »

In real life its fairly flexible in the Theravada too Shonin. I know lots of Theravadin lay people and complete teetotallers are in the minority. Even if their total intake for the year is a glass of champers at a wedding. Even the very keen types who wear all white when going to the Wat ( the very epitome of lay dhammic keenness ) have been known to have a glass of Beaujolais without rushing to the temple and rioting.
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Shonin
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Shonin »

The Zen centre I stayed at in France had a bar... with a dance-floor. A good way to loosen up after a week of meditation, silence and dharma talks. :)
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

:weep:
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by bodom »

Shonin wrote:The Zen centre I stayed at in France had a bar...
That is sad.
You need to make an effort to renounce. You must contemplate until you see the harmful effects which come from such behaviour. See the harm in drinking and going out on the town. Reflect and see the harm inherent in all the different kinds of unskilful behaviour which you indulge in, until it becomes fully apparent. This would provide the impetus for you to take a step back and change your ways. Then you would find some real peace. To experience peace of mind you have to clearly see the disadvantages and danger in such forms of behaviour. This is practising in the correct way. If you do a silent retreat for seven days, where you don't have to speak to or get involved with anybody, and then go chatting, gossiping and overindulging for another seven months, how will you gain any real or lasting benefit from those seven days - Ajahn Chah
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Individual
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Individual »

bodom wrote:
Shonin wrote:The Zen centre I stayed at in France had a bar...
That is sad.
You need to make an effort to renounce. You must contemplate until you see the harmful effects which come from such behaviour. See the harm in drinking and going out on the town. Reflect and see the harm inherent in all the different kinds of unskilful behaviour which you indulge in, until it becomes fully apparent. This would provide the impetus for you to take a step back and change your ways. Then you would find some real peace. To experience peace of mind you have to clearly see the disadvantages and danger in such forms of behaviour. This is practising in the correct way. If you do a silent retreat for seven days, where you don't have to speak to or get involved with anybody, and then go chatting, gossiping and overindulging for another seven months, how will you gain any real or lasting benefit from those seven days - Ajahn Chah
How's that relevant?

Ajahn Chah says "you"

not "they"
The best things in life aren't things.

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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by bodom »

How's that relevant?

It says "you"not "they"


It is relevant due to the fact that I have seen the dangers associated with alcohol myself and do no not want to see others go through the same consequences. Why not help others see the danger in alcohol consumption? That is the point of your signature.."Admirable friendship.." is it not? Too many alcoholics started out as moderate drinkers. Besides the Buddha spoke of keeping the precepts pure and encouraging others to undertake and keep them as well.
"Jivaka, when a lay follower himself is consummate in conviction and encourages others in the consummation of conviction; when he himself is consummate in virtue and encourages others in the consummation of virtue...practices the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma and encourages others to practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma: then to that extent he is a lay follower who practices both for his own benefit and for the benefit of others."
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Individual
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Individual »

bodom wrote:
How's that relevant?

It says "you"not "they"


It is relevant due to the fact that I have seen the dangers associated with alcohol myself and do no not want to see others go through the same consequences. Why not help others see the danger in alcohol consumption? Too many alcoholics started out as moderate drinkers. Besides the Buddha spoke of keeping the precepts pure and encouraging others to undertake and keep them as well.
"Jivaka, when a lay follower himself is consummate in conviction and encourages others in the consummation of conviction; when he himself is consummate in virtue and encourages others in the consummation of virtue...practices the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma and encourages others to practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma: then to that extent he is a lay follower who practices both for his own benefit and for the benefit of others."
:anjali:
You do not want others to go through the same consequences -- OK.

But they will.

So, why want something you can't control?

My father is an alcoholic. Should I break down into tears every time he drinks?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by bodom »

You do not want others to go through the same consequences -- OK. But they will.


Not necessarily. There might be some with 'little dust in their eyes'. :smile:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Individual
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Individual »

bodom wrote:
You do not want others to go through the same consequences -- OK. But they will.


Not necessarily. There might be some with 'little dust in their eyes'. :smile:

:anjali:
Good luck, young Bodhisattva
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by bodom »

young Bodhisattva
Not in the least. Just "Admirable friendship.."

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Individual
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Individual »

bodom wrote:
young Bodhisattva
Not in the least. Just "Admirable friendship.."

:anjali:
You are friends with Zen students in France?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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yuttadhammo
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by yuttadhammo »

Something that I don't think has been discussed here (maybe elsewhere...) is the importance of moral precepts as lines in the sand. If there is no line drawn, how can you rely on the individual hazy definition of "moderation"? I suppose a better argument could be had for marijuana, given the arguably medicinal value of smoking it (though I've heard ingestion is a healthier and more physical-oriented method anyway), but can you really argue for a flexible guideline for the use of poison?

It seems no one has argued the benefit of absolute morality in terms of its effect on society's understanding of the subject matter at hand; since alcohol can easily, and often does, lead to intoxication, and no obvious benefit comes from its use even in moderation (even relaxation is surely no different from pamāda), surely the best approach is complete abstinence, both for one's own safety, and for upholding the principle of one's opposition to intoxication.

Simply put, how can one claim to be striving for sobriety (i.e. enlightenment) when one condones the use of intoxicants, claiming a state of non-harmful, moderate intoxication? Why have precepts in the first place if only to try to find ways to bend them?

Sorry, I didn't read the other threads, just trolling along :)
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bodom
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by bodom »

Simply put, how can one claim to be striving for sobriety (i.e. enlightenment) when one condones the use of intoxicants, claiming a state of non-harmful, moderate intoxication? Why have precepts in the first place if only to try to find ways to bend them?


:thumbsup:

Thank you Bhante.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Individual
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Re: Can a Buddhist drink alcohol in moderation?

Post by Individual »

yuttadhammo wrote:Something that I don't think has been discussed here (maybe elsewhere...) is the importance of moral precepts as lines in the sand. If there is no line drawn, how can you rely on the individual hazy definition of "moderation"? I suppose a better argument could be had for marijuana, given the arguably medicinal value of smoking it (though I've heard ingestion is a healthier and more physical-oriented method anyway), but can you really argue for a flexible guideline for the use of poison?

It seems no one has argued the benefit of absolute morality in terms of its effect on society's understanding of the subject matter at hand; since alcohol can easily, and often does, lead to intoxication, and no obvious benefit comes from its use even in moderation (even relaxation is surely no different from pamāda), surely the best approach is complete abstinence, both for one's own safety, and for upholding the principle of one's opposition to intoxication.

Simply put, how can one claim to be striving for sobriety (i.e. enlightenment) when one condones the use of intoxicants, claiming a state of non-harmful, moderate intoxication? Why have precepts in the first place if only to try to find ways to bend them?
Very true
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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